Author Topic: Sports Funding in NI  (Read 7491 times)

Evil Genius

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2020, 12:03:27 AM »
He refuses to accept that the majority of soccer teams in NI are unconstituted, have no grounds, no members, and in a lot of cases, no bank account.  Which means that these ones are ineligible for any public grant.

He is is also unwilling to accept that unless a club owns property (or has a long term lease) then it is immediately ruled out of all capital grants (which is obviously where the majority of funding lies).

All in all there’s only 40-odd soccer clubs in NI that can qualify for a capital grant, only 40-odd rugby clubs in NI that can qualify for a capital grant, but some 400-odd GAA clubs that can legally qualify for a capital grant.

The disparity should, if an  uh hung, be greater
That is nonsense.

(Off the top of my head) Clubs have to pay Affiliation Fees to whatever league they're in. Fines and Competition Entry Fees also need to be paid. The players usually have to pay a subscription to their club. Kits and other equipment need to be purchased. Where a club doesn't own its own ground, it needs to pay rent to the Council (or whoever owns it). Ditto where they rent training facilities at their local leisure centre etc.
They have to pay referees and linesmen and sometimes managers. Coaches sometimes get paid, if only expenses and they need to pay to take their badges.
Kits need to be washed, coaches (buses) have to be hired, or petrol expenses reimbursed. Even at Junior level, players sometimes receive a few quid.
Some clubs charge admission to games, which needs to be accounted for, while most clubs have local sponsors and advertisers, who are paying money into the club. Some clubs run lotteries or other fund raising activities.
Websites need to be designed and maintained.
Where clubs have youth teams, Child Protection procedures need to be in place.
Any club which applies for funding clearly has to have proper accounting procedures in place, and/or employ a specialist fund raiser.
And, of course, many clubs own their grounds, with all the extra expense which that entails, including bookkeeping and accountants fees.

How do you imagine clubs handle all this without a bank account? Fivers and tenners in a biscuit tin?
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Evil Genius

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2020, 12:57:59 AM »
The majority of soccer teams in NI are junior soccer teams and are not constituted. They are pub teams, so to speak,
More nonsense.

There are 24 Senior and 12 Premier Intermediate clubs in NI in the pyramid. The IFA currently has plans to expand the the Intermediate tier by re-constituting another 117 clubs at Intermediate 2 level, in four leagues with 8 divisions:
https://www.irishfa.com/media/24670/intermediate-football-restructure.pdf

And that's before you get to Junior Football. As far as I can quickly ascertain, there are another 16 Junior Leagues, each with multiple teams, most with more than one division.
To take one example, the Fermanagh & Western Football League has 3 Divisions, comprising 30 separate clubs. They also run three Reserve Leagues (30 clubs) and a Youth League.
Six of these clubs are in Enniskillen alone, which I believe has one GAA club (maybe two?).
Of course each season you may get occasional clubs which fold or dissolve etc, but these are invariably replaced, since overall club numbers are holding up.
http://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/

Schools football is also played widely in NI. For example, the annual Danske Bank Schools Cup receives 100+ entries, from schools in every part of NI, and including grammar, secondary and comprehensive; State, Catholic and Integrated. There's even a couple of Irish Language schools.
https://nisfa.co.uk/index.php/schools/inspiresport-u18-cup-and-plate/inspiresport-u18-cup-results
Run by the NISFA, this is played throughout the season, with the Final on St.Patricks Day. By contrast, the GAA equivalent, MacRory Cup has 16 regular entrants, and the Ulster Schools Rugby Cup 24(?), in both cases these are drawn from very narrow sectors.
(I am aware that GAA and Rugby both have other organised, under-age competitions, but then again, so does Football)

And all of the above is separate from IFA-organised Youth Football eg:
https://www.irishfa.com/ifa-domestic/cup-competitions/harry-cavan-youth-cup-sponsored-by-dale-farm-protein-milk/youth-cup-2019-20

Then there's Womens and Girls football, and a few (organised, regular) outliers, like Churches Leagues.

All of these are reliant upon volunteers to keep going.

Meanwhile, I think you greatly underestimate the participation levels in the above.
This 2019 survey indicates that 3 times as many people (9%) "participate" in Football as participate in Gaelic Football (3%):
https://www.statista.com/statistics/535202/most-participated-sports-physical-activities-north-ireland-uk/

Obviously "participation" in football involves more than just organised football such as I listed above (5-a-side, Leisure Centres, Youth Clubs etc), and you can't really play Gaelic sports on a "kickabout" basis. Nonetheless, they don't all fall within that category, by any means.

That's quite a few "Pub Teams", eh?  ::)




« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 01:07:13 AM by Evil Genius »
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thewobbler

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2020, 09:00:34 AM »
EG you’re making too many assumptions (as I might be too, in fairness).

Enniskillen might have 6 soccer teams to one GAA. Newry is a similar story: about 12 soccer teams to 4 GAA. But here’s the thing, 10 years ago it was about 20:4. And 3-4 of the current soccer teams didn’t exist 10 years ago.

What this tells me is that when it’s that easy to create or fold a team, that the majority are unconstituted: and that without a constitution or a physical address, getting a bank account might be more trouble than it’s worth. A good club man will use his credit card where necessary and claim it back in fivers and tenners.

The basic reality is that as you need neither a constitution nor a bank account to register in a junior soccer league in NI, these then become “down the line” things when forming a club.

Of course longer established clubs with youth schemes need these things. But as has been my point for some time on this thread, GAA clubs swamp soccer clubs in this regard. Hence the GAA is more grant ready.


tyrone86

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2020, 09:46:52 AM »
Er, IL matches don't reflect the entirety of football in NI, or anything like it.

More to the point, as well as GAA, Football and Rugby, "sports clubs and organisations" encompasses hockey, athletics, boxing, swimming, golf, tennis, badminton, bowls, cricket, motor sports, netball, gymnastics, equestrian, cycling, basketball, disabled sports and any number of others which I can't bring immediately to mind.

Are you claiming that GAA encompasses 40% of ALL sport in NI?

I don't think anyone is claiming that or anything close to it but I find it interesting that you're quoting everything except the substantive point.
That was the clear implication of Eammonca's post, both with his IL dig, and the overall tone of this thread, which is comparing GAA, Football and Rugby.

The hardship fund is to cover overheads and maintain facilities.

Personally, I have no idea if GAA units own 40% of the facilities that aren't owned by the local councils or hired from Universities, schools or elsewhere but it's fair to say, with the exception of Golf clubs, that a much higher percentage of GAA clubs own their own facilities than those organisations you mention.
Except that the fund is not intended only for sports organisations which own their own premises, or even weighted towards them.

As I pointed out, it is for the benefit of literally thousands of clubs and organisations, covering dozens of sports and activities, with numbers of participants who must reach six figures (when you count people who play more than one sport).

To claim that GAA's "share", whether measured by clubs or membership, amounts to 40%  of the overall, is quite simply ludicrous.

http://www.sportni.net/funding/our-funding-programmes/sports-hardship-fund-2/

What we’ll fund

The fund has been developed to help sport and physical recreation organisations meet their obligations, in particular fixed costs, which are no longer supported with revenue as a result of coronavirus. This might cover expenditure on:

Rent/Lease
Heat
Light
Utilities
Water Rates
Essential grounds/facility maintenance (to maintain a state of readiness)
Some Insurance (essential building/contents insurance, public liability, pro-rata)

Evening all.

Just taken a quick scan of how this thread has developed since my last visit and this contributiuon from 'Tyrone86' caught my eye.

And I have to say it is not at all relevant to the original matter which caused me to open this thread.

That is, I was referring to general funding for 3 years from 2016 to 2109, where there was a big disparity between funding for the 3 codes.

Whereas 'Tyrone86' refers to the emergency Covid funding first announced in April and since augmented by a second tranche. With the emphasis on Fixed Costs listed, you might expect sports which own more of their own premises to benefit more, no problem from me with that.

But the original BT article referred to funding across the board, where the effect of Fixed Costs etc must inevitably be diluted.

Which brings us back to my original query, which has still to be explained adequately to my satisfaction, at least.

I don't think anyone here will be able to answer it to your satisfaction because, maybe I'm wrong, I suspect no-one sits on the board providing the funding. If you FOI the department of communities I'm sure they'll give you the necessary breakdowns and maybe an overarching view of what applications were accepted and what was rejected and what the funding was requested for at a granular level.

Similarly, it might be interesting to break down what local councils are providing in terms of full time and casual coaches, facilities, the upkeep of said facilities and other funding to sporting bodies / clubs to see if there's any huge disparity? IIRC a large chunk of the money for the redevelopment of the Brandywell came from the local council as well as from Stormont.

Cluborcountywhynotboth

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2020, 10:46:30 AM »
Not to answer the OP but to contribute to the other posts on here. I am involved in the committee of both my local GAA club and local junior league soccer club, i also regularly attend the league meetings of the soccer league we are in. We have approx 35 teams in our league structure and from my knowledge it’s only those very few who are also affiliated with intermediate clubs who have any form of constitution or bank accounts, I’d hazard a guess at about 30 out of them, including ourselves, very much still work ‘out of the biscuit tin’. We lift £3 a man every week and do one draw a year and this covers everything the club has to pay, off the top of my head I’d say between pitch, referee, washing rigs etc... a full year you could probably run a local junior soccer club on about £1500-£2000. In contrast my local GAA club can take between £70k-£90 a year in running costs alone, before you go into any thing over and above, we HAVE to have a constitution and we have to have audited bank accounts etc... to equate a local GAA club to a junior soccer club in regards to viability for funding is ridiculous. A standard GAA club would be more akin to a IL soccer club and hence the reason they can apply for funding while the large majority of soccer clubs cannot.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2020, 01:25:12 PM »
He has often denied that he's Paul Kimmage.
Have some self respect
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:58:06 PM by Baile Brigín 2 »

Evil Genius

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2020, 04:07:36 PM »
According to this, there are just over 400 GAA clubs in NI:
https://www.joe.ie/sport/infographic-the-number-of-gaa-clubs-in-every-county-in-ireland-and-every-continent-around-the-world-420318

There are just under 1,000 clubs registered with the IFA:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa

They're not all Pub Teams, run by some bloke with a biscuit tin of fivers.
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johnnycool

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2020, 04:13:08 PM »
According to this, there are just over 400 GAA clubs in NI:
https://www.joe.ie/sport/infographic-the-number-of-gaa-clubs-in-every-county-in-ireland-and-every-continent-around-the-world-420318

There are just under 1,000 clubs registered with the IFA:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa

They're not all Pub Teams, run by some bloke with a biscuit tin of fivers.

Are Red Star Bangor in there?

thewobbler

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2020, 04:26:40 PM »
According to this, there are just over 400 GAA clubs in NI:
https://www.joe.ie/sport/infographic-the-number-of-gaa-clubs-in-every-county-in-ireland-and-every-continent-around-the-world-420318

There are just under 1,000 clubs registered with the IFA:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa

They're not all Pub Teams, run by some bloke with a biscuit tin of fivers.


You keep finding trees instead of the woods here.

Every single last one of those 400 GAA clubs will be constituted up to the eyeballs and will have a lifetime of bank statements, and upwards on 90% of them will own and maintain their own grounds.



There may well be 1000 teams affiliated to the IFA, but once you get past the 40-odd senior/intermediate ** club sides, and the 60-100 easily recognisable/long-established intermediate/junior clubs **, you’ll be lucky to have a handful of clubs with their own grounds, and/or youth teams, and therefore capable of applying for a coaching or capital grant.

The thing is, if you don’t have coaches and don’t have facilities, then you don’t really need a bank account. The only expense of note is a kit every couple of seasons, which is covered by a sponsor. What makes you think the raft of junior clubs (which must number 700-800 according to your figures) *** would have one?


** there is promotion and relegation in place across the tiers but facilities regulations mean there are only around 40 clubs in NI with any potential to play senior grade, and only another (I’d estimate) 100 or so capable of playing intermediate grade.

*** I’d assume that once you remove seconds and thirds teams from this equation the number would quickly dwindle from 700 again, and it’s those teams who are basically transient in nature. They could win a junior title in their first season and never be seen again.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2020, 08:58:56 PM »
They don't have coaches?

thewobbler

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2020, 09:08:10 PM »
They don't have coaches?

When the sporadic training session consists of 12-15 lads doing the crossbar challenge followed by 6 a side into the one net, there’s not much need for coaching.

——

EG was thinking about this earlier. The number of affiliated darts teams in the wee six would also dwarf the number of GAA clubs.

I’ve played darts for the past decade in a Newry league. Before that I played junior soccer for the best part of a decade in Newry. Throughout that time I’ve been a GAA club member and committee person.

Hand in heart, local soccer is closer to darts in terms of its structures than it is to GAA.

Newry is obviously not fully representative of the North. But i played soccer in enough random venues across the wee six to learn it’s definitely not an outlier.


marty34

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2020, 10:28:37 PM »
According to this, there are just over 400 GAA clubs in NI:
https://www.joe.ie/sport/infographic-the-number-of-gaa-clubs-in-every-county-in-ireland-and-every-continent-around-the-world-420318

There are just under 1,000 clubs registered with the IFA:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-football-association/about-the-ifa

They're not all Pub Teams, run by some bloke with a biscuit tin of fivers.

For them 400 clubs, not teams i.e. there are seniors, reserves, U18, U16, U14, U12, U10, U8 and U6s.  Huge numbers.

Never mind add in hurling and camogie teams and they're huge numbers.

Soccer, apart from a few leagues, is really just junior stuff.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2020, 11:58:56 AM »
They don't have coaches?

When the sporadic training session consists of 12-15 lads doing the crossbar challenge followed by 6 a side into the one net, there’s not much need for coaching.

——

EG was thinking about this earlier. The number of affiliated darts teams in the wee six would also dwarf the number of GAA clubs.

I’ve played darts for the past decade in a Newry league. Before that I played junior soccer for the best part of a decade in Newry. Throughout that time I’ve been a GAA club member and committee person.

Hand in heart, local soccer is closer to darts in terms of its structures than it is to GAA.

Newry is obviously not fully representative of the North. But i played soccer in enough random venues across the wee six to learn it’s definitely not an outlier.

Pure bigotry.

thewobbler

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2020, 02:37:43 PM »
Don’t think so BB. I’m happy to report that I’m a soccer fan and former player. I don’t have any bones to grind with the sport, not even close.

The difference between me and you is that I can objectively recognise that soccer in NI isn’t even remotely as entrenched in communities as Gaelic Games is. My own club’s turnover and expenditure per annum would be equivalent of 20 junior soccer clubs in Newry.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Sports Funding in NI
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2020, 08:31:52 AM »
Don’t think so BB. I’m happy to report that I’m a soccer fan and former player. I don’t have any bones to grind with the sport, not even close.

The difference between me and you is that I can objectively recognise that soccer in NI isn’t even remotely as entrenched in communities as Gaelic Games is. My own club’s turnover and expenditure per annum would be equivalent of 20 junior soccer clubs in Newry.

And a senior soccer club has the turnover of 20 GAA clubs. So what?