China Coronavirus

[Mario]

The link O'Neill posted about Italy, where people are getting on with things, but they do wear masks, keep their distance etc. This may reflect a recognition of the danger after the scenes earlier in the year of army trucks carrying bodies and relatively young medical staff dying because of their work. So rates in Italy have not increased as quickly as many places, likewise in New York.
Here, with a health service that is stressed at the best of times, many people do not seem to accept there is a problem, or if there is that they personally have any requirement to do anything about it.

So places where the virus spread like wild fire no longer have high numbers of cases. Do you really think people in NY are obeying the rules better than Ireland? Perhaps rates haven't increased here because there is more immunity from t cells and antibodies in these places. All strict lockdown does is kick the can down the road.

What's "the can"?

People susceptible to the virus. Everyone is going to get it at some point, It's here to stay. The flu has never disappeared and we've had a vaccine for 20 years. There are also serious question marks over how effective and safe a vaccine produced in 6 months will be.

I'm all for wearing masks, washing hands regularly if it stops the spread but to lockdown society is ridiculous, particularly when our hospitals are not over run. Yes there is a 2 week lag but if that is the case the nhs should be on its knees next week if all we have been told is true. Young healthy people should be allowed to get on with their lives with precautions, old people should isolate more if they are worried. No business should be closed or restricted. If we ever get to the scenes in lombardi or Spain then have a strict lockdown, but let's not ruin society by preempting such a disaster.

[laoislad]

What an idiot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/i-didnt-know-i-had-to-self-isolate-publican-who-had-coronavirus-went-to-work-while-waiting-for-test-results-39561710.html

[sid waddell]

The link O'Neill posted about Italy, where people are getting on with things, but they do wear masks, keep their distance etc. This may reflect a recognition of the danger after the scenes earlier in the year of army trucks carrying bodies and relatively young medical staff dying because of their work. So rates in Italy have not increased as quickly as many places, likewise in New York.
Here, with a health service that is stressed at the best of times, many people do not seem to accept there is a problem, or if there is that they personally have any requirement to do anything about it.

So places where the virus spread like wild fire no longer have high numbers of cases. Do you really think people in NY are obeying the rules better than Ireland? Perhaps rates haven't increased here because there is more immunity from t cells and antibodies in these places. All strict lockdown does is kick the can down the road.

What's "the can"?

People susceptible to the virus. Everyone is going to get it at some point, It's here to stay. The flu has never disappeared and we've had a vaccine for 20 years. There are also serious question marks over how effective and safe a vaccine produced in 6 months will be.

I'm all for wearing masks, washing hands regularly if it stops the spread but to lockdown society is ridiculous, particularly when our hospitals are not over run. Yes there is a 2 week lag but if that is the case the nhs should be on its knees next week if all we have been told is true. Young healthy people should be allowed to get on with their lives with precautions, old people should isolate more if they are worried. No business should be closed or restricted. If we ever get to the scenes in lombardi or Italy then have a strict lockdown, but let's not ruin society by preempting such a disaster.

Our hospitals were not and are not overrun because we locked down and because we still have some restrictions

The restrictions we currently have are not lockdown, they are quite mild actually, they are not that different to Sweden as far as I can see, certainly in most places

Inviting a massive public health crisis, which, let's face it, is what you are proposing, seems very foolish and indeed immoral

That was the primary reason why the Swedish approach was the wrong one

It is immoral to subject a population to being guinea pigs for a new pandemic disease about which little is known

Having a properly functioning test, trace and isolation system seems to be the key

But inviting three and a half million people (or "everybody", as you say, which on the island is nearly 7 million people I think) to get the virus is crazy, it will only make things a lot worse

Trial processes for vaccines happen in order to make sure they are safe

[armaghniac]

I'm all for wearing masks, washing hands regularly if it stops the spread but to lockdown society is ridiculous, particularly when our hospitals are not over run. Yes there is a 2 week lag but if that is the case the nhs should be on its knees next week if all we have been told is true. Young healthy people should be allowed to get on with their lives with precautions, old people should isolate more if they are worried. No business should be closed or restricted. If we ever get to the scenes in lombardi or Spain then have a strict lockdown, but let's not ruin society by preempting such a disaster.

The time lag is more like 3-4 weeks for the impact on the health service, here is the 26 counties earlier in the year. The only responsible thing is to slow things down so that the health service can cope with the effects 3 weeks later.



The point which all these "let her rip" comments manage to overlook is that you cannot have an ever increasing number without running into trouble. You have to stop the number increasing each week and that requires measures. Handwashing will not keep R at 1, even if people were actually handwashing.

What an idiot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/i-didnt-know-i-had-to-self-isolate-publican-who-had-coronavirus-went-to-work-while-waiting-for-test-results-39561710.html

This plonker should lose his licence. Some publications will be responsible those that are not should not be allow undermine the others.

[Rossfan]

That buck has been getting some abuse locally and well deserved.
The town of Elphin is in effect closed down in an effort to stop the virus spreading.

[sid waddell]

This thread is well worth reading

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

1) As a US citizen in Sweden, I'm disturbed when I see the US right push the "Swedish model" for dealing with COVID19. It's an utterly cynical, disingenuous position that goes far beyond the question of lockdowns and masks, and highlights what's rotten at the core of US society.

2) The US political right are using a misleading vision of Sweden's COVID19 policy to promote a brutal philosophy of savage individualism, fatalism and "freedom from government." The irony of this position is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

3) Sweden's COVID policy hardly a success (6000 dead), but natl. policy can only be understood as inseparable from Sweden's developed welfare state, social system: universal healthcare, paid sick leave, paid leave to care for sick kids, subsidized daycare & pre/after-school care.

4) For many Swedes, social security policies in place mean getting COVID not a crushing financial blow; or, if jobs are lost, the state will help to support you. It's impossible — and frankly stupid — to even try to see Sweden's COVID19 strategy as separated from these policies.

5) So, it's some pretty cynical bullshit for US right-wingers who have, under the banner of "Small Government" and "Liberty," devoted their lives to  crushing universal healthcare and other humane social policies now claim to support the "Swedish model" for tackling COVID19.

6) In pushing US version of "Swedish model" for COVID19 (in other words, w/none of the Swedish healthcare, social programs), the US right is just telling citizens to enjoy their "liberty" without restriction, but if they get sick, spouse gets sick, company goes bust...tough shit.

7) Let's also be clear that even w/Sweden's relatively developed, generous social policies, many here are struggling, and many in low-paying part-time jobs must continue to work even when they suspect they're sick. So, pushing a "Swedish approach" w/even fewer safety nets? Crazy.

Political right cherry-pick two issues from Sweden — lockdowns, masks — & pitch them as symbols of "freedom." But real freedom comes from not being bankrupted by illness, paying for childcare, sudden unemployment. The right wants you to forget the second half of that equation.

9) And we should never let it slip through cracks that in Sweden, just as in US, minorities have been hit disproportionately hard by COVID19, in large part due to relative poverty and the type of employment. Making access to healthcare and social programs all the more important.

[armaghniac]

319 in the 6 counties compared to 248 in the 26.Sammy Wilson will be proud that the Ulster folk are showing them how it is done.

[trileacman]

This thread is well worth reading

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

1) As a US citizen in Sweden, I'm disturbed when I see the US right push the "Swedish model" for dealing with COVID19. It's an utterly cynical, disingenuous position that goes far beyond the question of lockdowns and masks, and highlights what's rotten at the core of US society.

2) The US political right are using a misleading vision of Sweden's COVID19 policy to promote a brutal philosophy of savage individualism, fatalism and "freedom from government." The irony of this position is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

3) Sweden's COVID policy hardly a success (6000 dead), but natl. policy can only be understood as inseparable from Sweden's developed welfare state, social system: universal healthcare, paid sick leave, paid leave to care for sick kids, subsidized daycare & pre/after-school care.

4) For many Swedes, social security policies in place mean getting COVID not a crushing financial blow; or, if jobs are lost, the state will help to support you. It's impossible — and frankly stupid — to even try to see Sweden's COVID19 strategy as separated from these policies.

5) So, it's some pretty cynical bullshit for US right-wingers who have, under the banner of "Small Government" and "Liberty," devoted their lives to  crushing universal healthcare and other humane social policies now claim to support the "Swedish model" for tackling COVID19.

6) In pushing US version of "Swedish model" for COVID19 (in other words, w/none of the Swedish healthcare, social programs), the US right is just telling citizens to enjoy their "liberty" without restriction, but if they get sick, spouse gets sick, company goes bust...tough shit.

7) Let's also be clear that even w/Sweden's relatively developed, generous social policies, many here are struggling, and many in low-paying part-time jobs must continue to work even when they suspect they're sick. So, pushing a "Swedish approach" w/even fewer safety nets? Crazy.


9) And we should never let it slip through cracks that in Sweden, just as in US, minorities have been hit disproportionately hard by COVID19, in large part due to relative poverty and the type of employment. Making access to healthcare and social programs all the more important.

A very strange reading of the situation. The fear from a large scale Covid outbreak is not financial ruin for those who are infected but their deaths. The US government is pushing for lower restrictions to prevent a widespread financial crisis that they would be unable/willing to provide social security for those affected.

The situation is the exact reverse in Sweden, a welfare state. Their Covid policy stands in direct conflict with, rather than consistent with their social policies. If anything it would have made more sense for Sweden to employ a widespread lockdown given that they would have committed to supporting businesses/ providing social security etc.

Political right cherry-pick two issues from Sweden — lockdowns, masks — & pitch them as symbols of "freedom." But real freedom comes from not being bankrupted by illness, paying for childcare, sudden unemployment. The right wants you to forget the second half of that equation.

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

[sid waddell]

This thread is well worth reading

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

1) As a US citizen in Sweden, I'm disturbed when I see the US right push the "Swedish model" for dealing with COVID19. It's an utterly cynical, disingenuous position that goes far beyond the question of lockdowns and masks, and highlights what's rotten at the core of US society.

2) The US political right are using a misleading vision of Sweden's COVID19 policy to promote a brutal philosophy of savage individualism, fatalism and "freedom from government." The irony of this position is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

3) Sweden's COVID policy hardly a success (6000 dead), but natl. policy can only be understood as inseparable from Sweden's developed welfare state, social system: universal healthcare, paid sick leave, paid leave to care for sick kids, subsidized daycare & pre/after-school care.

4) For many Swedes, social security policies in place mean getting COVID not a crushing financial blow; or, if jobs are lost, the state will help to support you. It's impossible — and frankly stupid — to even try to see Sweden's COVID19 strategy as separated from these policies.

5) So, it's some pretty cynical bullshit for US right-wingers who have, under the banner of "Small Government" and "Liberty," devoted their lives to  crushing universal healthcare and other humane social policies now claim to support the "Swedish model" for tackling COVID19.

6) In pushing US version of "Swedish model" for COVID19 (in other words, w/none of the Swedish healthcare, social programs), the US right is just telling citizens to enjoy their "liberty" without restriction, but if they get sick, spouse gets sick, company goes bust...tough shit.

7) Let's also be clear that even w/Sweden's relatively developed, generous social policies, many here are struggling, and many in low-paying part-time jobs must continue to work even when they suspect they're sick. So, pushing a "Swedish approach" w/even fewer safety nets? Crazy.


9) And we should never let it slip through cracks that in Sweden, just as in US, minorities have been hit disproportionately hard by COVID19, in large part due to relative poverty and the type of employment. Making access to healthcare and social programs all the more important.

A very strange reading of the situation. The fear from a large scale Covid outbreak is not financial ruin for those who are infected but their deaths. The US government is pushing for lower restrictions to prevent a widespread financial crisis that they would be unable/willing to provide social security for those affected.

The situation is the exact reverse in Sweden, a welfare state. Their Covid policy stands in direct conflict with, rather than consistent with their social policies. If anything it would have made more sense for Sweden to employ a widespread lockdown given that they would have committed to supporting businesses/ providing social security etc.

Political right cherry-pick two issues from Sweden — lockdowns, masks — & pitch them as symbols of "freedom." But real freedom comes from not being bankrupted by illness, paying for childcare, sudden unemployment. The right wants you to forget the second half of that equation.

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

How does he miss the point?

One of the reasons Sweden made the decision to implement the strategy they did was because they have a comprehensive welfare state that could cushion the blow of getting ill for people - I happen to think their strategy was wrong for other reasons, chiefly that it frontloaded a large number of deaths, which in my view is immoral - but there was at least some sort of a tenuous logic to their strategy given they have a comprehensive welfare state - they believed they could cushion the blow for people who fell ill and that the fall back of their welfare state would help people people to act responsibly, while reducing their economic hit

They were also wrong about the economic hit, suffering the worst of the Nordic countries

That's not surprising - economic health and public health go together, they are not in opposition

Philip Boucher Hayes explained the situation as regards living conditions, sick pay, school class sizes and the health system to Johan Giesecke during the week and all but got him to admit that Sweden's system is not an option for Ireland

In the US you have the worst of all worlds - a shambolic federal pandemic response with no welfare state and terrible working rights for most people, and a disinformation war

This is the point that has become front and centre here in Ireland lately - we have no comprehensive sick pay system - so because many people live in fear of losing their income, they have a vested interest in going to work if if they suspect they may have Covid

The writer's main point is that Sweden's strategy has been hijacked by right-wing politics internationally for nefarious means

He's absolutely right about that

The word "freedom" has been hijacked by the right-wing internationally - in reality it means the opposite of freedom - it means the destruction of regulation and welfare states and the freedom of the ultra-rich to live like kings at the expense of everybody else

They will use literally anything to spin bad faith, fake narratives as propaganda

Being anti-mask is the latest opportunist avenue and hijacking Sweden's Covid strategy for their own ends is another

But they despise everything else about Swedish society

The regime in the US does not care whether even its own supporters live or die, it's a psychopathic, fascist regime which only cares about money, power and immunity from prosecution and is willing to do literally anything and use literally anything to ensure such

[imtommygunn]

So apparently the nhs England app doesn't allow you to enter test results from the nhs. What the hell? (incidentally yes the tories mates did do it yes)

[armaghniac]

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

But it doesn't really work, the economic declined in the US only fractionally less than in Germany, which had comparatively few deaths. So the Germans did a much better job on the health of their citizens with about the same promotion of economic welfare.

[highorlow]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-contact-tracers-to-start-looking-into-where-people-are-infected-1.4364925?mode=amp

Jesus wept, one would have thought the whole point of contact tracing was to find out where people were around the time they contracted the disease.

Foot must've been taken off the gas when the App was released, complacency isn't just the general public. 

[armaghniac]

They don't have enough people. First priority is who did you give the disease to, so they can be isolated. Then investigating where you got it, but now that people are out and about this is labour intensive.

[Eire90]

Anti 5g anti maskers were in letterkemmy yeterday

[Rossfan]

Hopefully the bussed in 40 scumbags have contracted the disease.