Author Topic: Black and Tans Commemoration  (Read 4925 times)

Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2020, 03:32:37 PM »
Were those pair not released as the Courts decided they were due remission on their 40 year sentences?
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Itchy

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2020, 04:18:14 PM »
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

Did anyone ask the state to hold a commemoration for Saor Eire? No. So where is the comparison. We do have to move on from the past but we do not have to pretend the past was something it wasnt.

grounded

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2020, 04:22:19 PM »
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

I don't mean to be rude but i'm not understanding your point here, specifically how it relates to the proposed STATE commemoration of the RIC.
              I can understand  how it must be unbelievably hurtful for family members to have seen/known that those who murdered their loved ones walk under the GFA. Saying that , the GFA was agreed by the 2 governments, all the main political parties (bar DUP) and gained a majority vote in both NI and the Rep.
            For me, there was no need to commemorate the RIC specifically. They are holding a commemoration for all those who died in the war of independence and that is the best vehicle to remember all the participants of the conflict.
         Anyway i suppose the entire shambles, will give the government a heads up on sensitives that are still present particularly when addressing the civil war in any future commemorations.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2020, 04:34:22 PM »
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.

When and where is the state commemoration of Saor Eire?

Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2020, 04:37:15 PM »
Is weareros saying the 2 Gardai are comparable to the RIC or that Pat Vaughan and comrades are comparable to the 2 yokes who murdered Gardai Byrne and Morley?
Reading papers today it seems Flanagan was the "brain" behind singling out the RIC/Tans/Auxies for a special commemoration.
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weareros

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2020, 04:47:41 PM »
Is weareros saying the 2 Gardai are comparable to the RIC or that Pat Vaughan and comrades are comparable to the 2 yokes who murdered Gardai Byrne and Morley?
Reading papers today it seems Flanagan was the "brain" behind singling out the RIC/Tans/Auxies for a special commemoration.

Rossfan, I am not saying that. I am saying families, North and South, have been asked to move to reconciliation from more recent pain with the signing of GFA, which I agree with. But we seem to have more difficulty with events around War of Independence. Only reason I cited example.

That said, at the monument unveiled to those two murdered Gardai, Republicans were noticeable by their absence. Enough said. God rest those men.

Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2020, 05:25:55 PM »
Fair enough buck.
I dont think we have difficulties as such with War of Independence events
It's the State singling out for commemorating an organisation who fought against the establishment of an Irish state that got up people's noses.
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seafoid

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2020, 07:15:11 PM »
Unsurprisingly


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ric-controversy-has-set-back-bid-for-united-ireland-says-varadkar-1.4134165


Unionist politicians have deplored the decision by Mr Flanagan to call off the planned commemoration for the RIC.

The DUP, Ulster Unionist Party and the Traditional Unionist voice said the decision and the reaction to the proposal raised questions about how unionists would be treated in a united Ireland.

“Those leading the vehement opposition to this event are the same people who tell those of us in Northern Ireland that British identity would be respected and accommodated within some mythical ‘new Ireland’,” said Mr Donaldson.


“When agreement cannot be found to commemorate those who died 100 years ago it is a clear demonstration of how far we still have to travel in terms of respect and reconciliation, particularly in relation to the British identity in Northern Ireland by republicans,” he added.


Mr Donaldson said that those who served in the RIC and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) “were Irish men and women from all religious backgrounds who lived and worked in an Ireland that was politically united”.

“Many of them suffered or were murdered for no reason other than the fact they wore a crown on their uniform, and it is difficult to escape the conclusion that opposition to this commemoration is based again on that,” he added.

Ulster Unionist Party leader, Steve Aiken, said the decision was “disappointing, but not surprising given the tone of the debate and the language used by some of the leaders and elected representatives of political parties in the Republic of Ireland”.

“It exposed a direct and underlying contradiction to their previous public statements about reconciliation,” he said.

“The comments coming from Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin representatives were deeply regrettable and will further affirm the view among many unionists in Northern Ireland that there are many within the Republic of Ireland who continue to hold a deep animosity against anyone or any organisation linked to ‘the Brits’,” he added.

Mr Aiken said that describing members of the RIC as “colonialists” and “oppressors” when the “vast majority of these men came from the island of Ireland, and served their communities with dedication, is an insult to their memory and their descendants”.

“These types of comments do nothing to build reconciliation and demonstrate that some elements of society with the Republic of Ireland remain openly hostile to the British identity or those perceived to be associated with it,” he added.

“This hostility will not be lost on unionists who are the subject of repeated entreaties to consider embracing Irish unity and who are constantly assured that all would be well. Actions really do speak louder than words,” said Mr Aiken.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 07:23:20 PM by seafoid »
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Itchy

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2020, 07:23:13 PM »
You could paint the Kerbs from dundalk to dublin red, white and blue and it wouldnt change anything for these particular gobshites. Only Leo the clown would take any heed of this.

RedHand88

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2020, 08:09:11 PM »
Shocker that people had a problem with a crown uniform after hundreds of years of persecution by aforementioned crown.

LaurelEye

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2020, 11:11:01 PM »
The RIC actively and nastily fought against the establishment of an Independent Irish State as voted for in 1918.

If this true, why were they inducted in large numbers into the Garda Siochana upon its formation and as such enjoyed almost universal public support thenceforth?

About 200 former RIC members (most of whom had resigned from the force before 1920) joined the Gardaí over the period from 1922 to 1933. 13 joined directly.

While the RIC were not the same thing as the Black and Tans and Auxies, certainly before 1920, they were both under the same command from early 1920 on and by the time of the truce the majority of "RIC" personnel in the 26 counties were either Black and Tans or Auxiliaries. Most RIC members prior to 1920 were Catholic and presumably small n- nationalist in politics, but the higher command structure remained solidly unionist.

The whole thing comes across as being a failed attempt at culture-war politics by a clique within FG who don't understand their own party never mind the country as a whole.

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners (the "cu*t politics" stuff on Twitter that he had to apologise for in 2015 when he was Foreign Affairs Minister supposedly supervising politics in the North) and has come out with stuff in the recent past about the RIC merely maintaining the rule of law in 1920 and being "murdered" in the line of duty. There was a lot of nasty and unheroic stuff on all sides in the War of Independence but if you implicitly label the Old IRA as "murderers" then the effect is to delegitimise the 26-county state that emerged from the Old IRA's struggle - a state that FG are anxious to fetishise in other contexts. Neither he nor Varadkar - we won't get onto Bruton's attempts to whitewash the Black and Tans the other night - seemed to grasp that they weren't just tweaking the nose of SF or of FF but rubbing the majority of their own supporters up the wrong way.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:14:16 PM by LaurelEye »
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Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2020, 11:29:31 PM »
+1.
Flanagan was left red faced some years ago in the Dáil. He launched an attack on the Shinners for wearing Easter lilies, then his FG colleague Frankie Feighan sat beside him sporting a lily.
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five points

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2020, 09:54:46 AM »

Flanagan has form in terms of trying to troll Shinners

Very true, yet less than a month ago the same Shinners were backing Flanagan's proposed new law on hate speech, which if it ever sees the light of day will forbid us all from questioning or robustly discussing issues like this if there is a "diversity" angle.

The RIC commemoration didn't bother me at all but it would have been wrong to ignore the groundswell of opinion against it.

Harold Disgracey

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2020, 11:29:53 AM »
Come out aye Black and Tans is currently number 1 in the uk iTunes chart. Well played Leo.

armaghniac

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2020, 12:01:10 PM »
Come out aye Black and Tans is currently number 1 in the uk iTunes chart. Well played Leo.

Steve Coogan surely played a role in popularising the tune too.
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