Author Topic: Black and Tans Commemoration  (Read 4894 times)

SkillfulBill

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2020, 07:29:15 PM »
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.
I presume you know the names of the other 5 beside Cusack?
'

Davin (stand)
Braken
power
Ryan an McKay

Mc Carthy storey always stood out for me as his place in GAA history has only in recent times been acknowledged he was in a paupers unmarked grave until the GAA put the history straight a few years back.

yellowcard

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2020, 07:54:09 PM »
‘Irish Blood Nationalist Right wing’. Sweet Jesus do us all a favour.

I’m glad that common sense has prevailed, FG had realised that they had misread the public mood badly and had no option but to cancel. It was a very poor judgement call to begin with. FG are badly out of touch with ordinary people most of them live in a Dublin middle class bubble and the same Dublin media largely facilitate and help set their news agenda for them. It’s all about self preservation, politics based on perceived populism rather than conviction politics based on principles.

Has Micheal Martin considered it safe to offer an opinion yet?

Itchy

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2020, 08:37:55 PM »
Good job Itchy the GAA has no association with the RIC....wait 7 founding members in Thurles and one of them a serving member of you know who....another name to be airbrushed out of our History Thomas McCarthy.

Dry your eyes lad.

Itchy

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2020, 08:40:06 PM »
‘Irish Blood Nationalist Right wing’. Sweet Jesus do us all a favour.

I’m glad that common sense has prevailed, FG had realised that they had misread the public mood badly and had no option but to cancel. It was a very poor judgement call to begin with. FG are badly out of touch with ordinary people most of them live in a Dublin middle class bubble and the same Dublin media largely facilitate and help set their news agenda for them. It’s all about self preservation, politics based on perceived populism rather than conviction politics based on principles.

Has Micheal Martin considered it safe to offer an opinion yet?

Leo was being advised by a bunch of D4 eejits and probably skillfulbill. Made a balls of it. I posted a link to Martin's "opinion" which was basically I'm going to sit in this fence in case i fall. He's worse than Leo as he has  no back bone at all

To add to that, look at what the think tank on commemorations had to say on this which shows that this was a FG plan and came from no where else....

   

A State commemoration of the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) has been postponed following public and political backlash.

The event, which was to be held in Dublin Castle on Friday week, has been postponed by the Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan after a number of politicians said they would boycott the event. Independent Alliance ministers John Halligan and Kevin Boxer Moran also said they would not attend.

Mr Flanagan said that “given the disappointing response of some to the planned event on 17th January, I do not believe that the event, as planned, can now take place in an atmosphere that meets the goals and guiding principles of the overall commemorative programme. Therefore, I am announcing its deferral.”

He said will consult further with the expert advisory group on centenary commemoration and with the all-party consultative group on commemoration “with a view to organising an event that is inclusive and fully respectful of all the traditions and memories on this island.”

He added that there were “those in the RIC who committed atrocities.”

“The horrific record of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries is well known. But there were thousands of other officers who behaved with dignity and honour in serving their communities. And we should not seek to airbrush these people from our history.”

Speaking later on RTÉ, Mr Flanagan said he is “determined that this event will take place” in the future.

However on Tuesday evening Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald called on the Government to scrap the plans entirely . “For any Irish government for advocate commemorating these organisations is shameful and it has rightly drawn much criticism,” she said.

“Deferral of this planned commemoration is a step in the right direction, but it’s not enough. This event needs to be cancelled.”

Earlier Historian Professor Diarmaid Ferriter said the expert advisory group on commemorations never suggested there should be a State event for the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police.

He took issue with a statement by Mr Flanagan who said on Monday that the proposed State commemoration was made “under the guidance of the expert advisory group on centenary commemorations”.

Mr Flanagan had responded to the mounting furore over the commemoration event on January 17th in Dublin Castle by stressing that it was never intended to honour the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries too.

He added: “This event is one of a large number of events taking place during this decade to acknowledge and commemorate significant events or developments in the history of our island one hundred years ago.

“It is not a celebration. It is an acknowledgement the historical importance of both the DMP and the RIC, and is in no sense a commemoration of the Black and Tans or the Auxiliaries.”

Professor Ferriter said the advisory group, which comprises of himself and other professional historians under the chairmanship of Dr Maurice Manning, did not recommend that a service for the RIC and the DMP be included in the list of State commemorations.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 07:52:04 AM by Itchy »

Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2020, 09:17:25 PM »
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

WT4E

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2020, 10:22:19 PM »
Thats Leo finished isnt it???

armaghniac

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2020, 10:46:01 PM »
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Franko

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Re: Blank and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2020, 08:39:45 AM »
If in a United Ireland, Unionists wanted the  government to honour RUC men who lost their lives in the Troubles, or indeed the precursor to the RUC, the RIC - would it be okay to commemorate RIC then. SF do tell them they have nothing to fear in a United Ireland, all traditions, both sides of history welcome.
Similar thoughts had crossed my mind, a lot of ROI citizens would undoubtedly find a 'New (united) Ireland' a strange place. There are lots of types of Irishmen.
There are indeed many types of "Irishman" and "Irishwoman".

We've long had exiled Irish (disapora) eg "Irish Americans". Now we've got "Irish Europeans" from membership of the EU. We've got eg Polish or Nigerian Irish following immigration. There are plenty of proud Gay Irish folk or Muslim Irish, hell there are even Irish Atheists. Irish Protestants have also found a place.

While formerly "excluded" groups like the Anglo-Irish (Wilde, Swift, Shaw, Beckett etc) have been reclaimed as "Irish" - at least if there's a festival, a grant or some other kudos to be derived.

Following as it does from massive social, cultural, economic and political changes, Leo Varadkar embodies this new situation, all of which is wholly to be welcomed (imo). Indeed I wish that people in NI could catch up, at least the more backward elements.

But there is one glaring exclusion to all this, even after a century of self-determination, and that is those people who like me, are/choose to be "British Irish". People in Ireland may choose dual or even multiple identities, but my one is "beyond the Pale" (sorry, weak joke).

Of course, in purely political terms, Britishness (Unionism) must be inimical in any independent Irish Republic, but my point is that "Irishness" is, or should be, about far more than some prescribed political affiliation. Yet the moment that someone likes me looks to assert my own Irishness, it is immediately discounted on account of my personal politics. (It is richly ironic that as the descendant of Scots people from many centuries back, I should now have an Irish version of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy applied to me lol).

Of course, people will say that this is my choice to exclude myself from the welcome that would await me in any all-Irish Republic etc. But this totally ignores a crucial aspect of the debate, namely that when Irish Unity's most vocal and active advocates urge, campaign and even try to bomb the "Brits" out of Ireland (I'm looking at you, Martina Anderson), they actually mean Brits like me* and my family, from a whole community who have been "British" and "Irish" for centuries.

And those same people wonder why we're not very enthusiastic about a United Ireland...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49850899


* - The grandson of an RIC man from Leitrim, btw, whom some of his fellow Irish people (neighbours?) tried to murder one night


If a new Ireland wants to be seen as a welcoming place for unionists, we must commemorate those who actively opposed the formation of the state, through murder, torture and tyranny?
No, that is not the consequence of what I posted. For not every RIC man, never mind Unionist, supported or engaged in, "murder, torture and tyranny".

If that is the case and we are to be consistent in our approach,  in order for the north to be an inclusive place for nationalists, we should have a 'state' commemoration for members of the IRA?
We're talking about the Irish Republic here, which as well as holding this commemoration for the RIC, also holds annual commemorations of eg the Easter Rising.

Whilst simultaneously proscribing the IRA as an illegal organisation.

The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

So who knows, come the centenary of the GFA in 2098, maybe Northern Ireland will find itself holding some sort of commemoration for the brave volunteers (or at least those who sold out at the time  ;))?


Why bring it up here then?  What's the relevance of what you have posted within the context of this discussion?

The level of detachment that a century might bring here might be determined by circumstances.  The grandson of a serving RIC officer might have a different outlook on this in comparison to, say, someone who’s grandfather had their house burned to the ground by members of the RIC.  Or maybe someone who’s grandfather had a hand grenade detonated whilst being forced to hold it in their mouth by members of the RIC.

For them, I’d imagine it’s pretty black and white.

LeoMc

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2020, 09:51:08 AM »
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.

Civil war politics still alive and well in the 26.
And we laugh at Orangemen holding onto 1690. Only another 230 years to go.

Baile Brigín 2

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2020, 10:30:52 AM »
Major OG by the Shirts.
This could be the straw that breaks the back of this Government.
A bit ironic considering the Housing and Health shambles.

It would  be a bit shameful if people were willing to put up with 120000 people on trolleys each year and needed this to ge rid of Harris, Varadkar et al.

Yes and no. Trollies has been years happening and people, rightfully or not, have moved on from blaming the minister.

What happened here was a bad idea spun offensively. Flanagan insulted the entire electorate using a patronising tone and now looks even gobshitier by backing out. None of us plebs understood it.

People don't like being insulted

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Blank and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2020, 10:36:34 AM »
The real point being that these things are not "black and white", never mind "black and tan". But with the objectivity and detachment that a century brings, reasonable people may come to a more all-round view of events and people.

Of course this is the nub of the matter. . Most who study irish and family history find this all-round view.  I have a grand-uncle who was in the DMP, two grandfathers who were in IRA, one of whom joined the Civic Guards directly in 1921.  I appreciate the nuances of this. 

There are some sensitivities  that Flanagan et al have blundered into:

1) The RIC as a "civic" police force.   It's a subject of debate if they were or not.  Going right back to the famine times there was the issue of their relationship with the ordinary folk.  They were always armed.  In my own county (Clare) pension records show that over 50% were "British" rather than "Irish".   They certainly never seem to have the "man on the beat" acceptance that much of the DMP had.  (outside of the G-Division).

2) The role the RIC found themselves in from 1918 - 1921 certainly could be seen as opposing the foundation of the very state that would now officially commemorate them. 

3) The fact that the "Black and Tans " were (deliberately) part of the RIC.  As a collective their actions were universally (even in contemporary British press and politics) regarded as criminal and unacceptable.

When Leo got into government I remember a controversy around his creation of heavily funded communications unit.  Still from a communications point of view they completely mishandled this commemoration and the issues above.   Other parties seem unaware or nonplussed about this but the Shinners went straight for number 3.  Flanagan made reference to online responses in his list of excuses.  However, there is a valid point that this went from an "RIC" commemoration to a "Black & Tan" commemoration on Twitter and it swept like wildfire. 

Also not inviting other party leaders but inviting council mayors?  Another own-goal.  Given that local republican representatives were most visible and targeted by Black and Tans?

Whoever is running that "comms unit" needs to take a long hard look.

/Jim.




armaghniac

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Re: Blank and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2020, 11:48:54 AM »
2) The role the RIC found themselves in from 1918 - 1921 certainly could be seen as opposing the foundation of the very state that would now officially commemorate them. 

3) The fact that the "Black and Tans " were (deliberately) part of the RIC.  As a collective their actions were universally (even in contemporary British press and politics) regarded as criminal and unacceptable.

Which is why having a centenary event in 2020 was total madness and you have to wonder at how out of touch these people are.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Main Street

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2020, 11:54:53 AM »
It's nonsense to be treating the RIC as one entity from foundation until 1921, or which IRA soldier/officer had an RIC daddy.
In April 1919 the RIC  was 'outlawed' by the parliament of legitimate provisional government and was replaced by the Irish Republican Police.

In my home town in Co Monaghan  10 RIC resigned their commission in the aftermath of the Dail declaration. The remaining loyal to the crown RICs were replenished with B&Ts and the Auxiliaries. By 1921 there were 4 sergeants and 20 constables, including 9 english born, all billeted together. They patrolled together, they acted like sadists together with impunity, they were scum of the earth.
 In jan 1921 a patrol was ambushed in the town, 2 RIC/Tans were killed along with their feckless quisling civilian informer who went out to warn them, a few others were injured. The usual suspect republican soldiers were rounded up, tortured and eventually 10 IRA 'suspects' were sentenced to death in a show trial, reprieved at the 11th hour by the truce. The RIC / B&Ts were all an equal part of this sadistic regime.  This is just one small story in one small town.

This part of local history was well documented by a local historian and he posted up the details in an RIC research and history discussion board. It aroused great interest not least with the grandson of one killed in the ambush, eventually leading to that grandson and many other english and irish descendants of the war time barrack's personnel visiting the town in 2013. By all accounts they received a warm rousing welcome from the locals and had a great time.

This is a far cry from the state commemorating the very same RIC in a state function with all the state paraphernalia.

Rossfan

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2020, 01:12:26 PM »
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

weareros

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Re: Black and Tans Commemoration
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2020, 02:22:19 PM »
Your last 2 lines sums it up precisely Main St.

As Pat Vaughan of Castlerea put it
"I had my house burned,one brother killed and another beaten so badly that he suffered all through his life.
But it was worth it.....we put our flag a flying"

And yet we have to move on from the two Gardai murdered from Castlerea in 1980 by a republican group (saor Eire) raising for the cause? While it took longer, the killers were still released under GFA.