Author Topic: Westminster Election 12th December 2019  (Read 22056 times)

seafoid

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #435 on: November 08, 2019, 01:38:44 PM »
Corbyn is incompetent and un-electable. Pandering to the unions and marxist left isn't what we need in a government.
Capital v Labour works like that

The UK economy is close to collapse. Another dose of the Tories would tip it into terminal crisis .
Lookit

Franko

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #436 on: November 08, 2019, 02:01:32 PM »
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt youíll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  Itís clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than ĎGet Brexit Doneí.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering thatís your prerogative.  I just donít see any basis for doing so.  Maybe youíd point out for us what it is that youíre basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I donít see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that Iíd disagree with him on.  But itís a two horse race and heís an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.

tbrick18

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #437 on: November 08, 2019, 02:22:24 PM »
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt youíll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  Itís clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than ĎGet Brexit Doneí.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering thatís your prerogative.  I just donít see any basis for doing so.  Maybe youíd point out for us what it is that youíre basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I donít see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that Iíd disagree with him on.  But itís a two horse race and heís an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.

I'd agree with this.

Politicians are not accountants (perhaps some are) and so wont necessarily have the financial expertise to work out figures in their head or indeed on a spreadsheet. What they do need is the ability to understand the bigger financial picture based on the detail supplied and explained by the experts and subsequently make the big decisions when armed with the information.
In the same way that I'm sure the defence secretary, doesn't know how to drive a tank, fight a war or shoot a gun, they instead take a high level view with the minute detail managed by the experts.
For that reason, I don't know how opinions on Corbyn's or Abbot's financial capability are any more relevant that Boris Johnson's ability to act a foreign secretary. To me, that is all propaganda and not founded on anything close to evidence.

I think you have to base opinions on what the policies are and on the ability of the politician's to adjust their policy or view when evidence or opinion of the party or electorate change. You wouldn't be much of a politician/leader if you pick a policy or agenda then stick with it no matter what new information comes to light. A-la May and Brexit means Brexit, or Boris and leave no matter what.
This is the same argument for a 2nd referendum I suppose, but opinion changes and circumstances change so I think it's only right that policy should change or at least allow for change.

I think Labour got caught in the middle of that dilemma of there being no clear majority in favour of Leave/Remain, election/no-election, Left/Centre Left from within the party or the electorate. So they have taken time and formulated what they believe to be a policy, regarding Brexit, which would appeal to a majority. It is never going to satisfy everyone.

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.

I know which I would prefer.

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #438 on: November 08, 2019, 02:34:23 PM »

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.


We all know what happened the last time Britain had an economically left-wing government.

Rossfan

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #439 on: November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM »
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

playwiththewind1st

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #440 on: November 08, 2019, 03:19:21 PM »
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.

Rossfan

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #441 on: November 08, 2019, 04:06:19 PM »
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

BennyCake

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #442 on: November 08, 2019, 04:44:30 PM »
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.

Everyone is ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.

Franko

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #443 on: November 08, 2019, 04:44:44 PM »
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Itís true.

I donít know whatís worse though.  Not having a say, or using your say to vote into power the very party responsible for leaving your fellow countrymen in such a predicament.

And some of them arenít even ashamed of it.

playwiththewind1st

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #444 on: November 08, 2019, 05:11:33 PM »
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.

& don't we know it....bloody DUP at their usual antics yet again

smelmoth

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #445 on: November 08, 2019, 08:24:51 PM »
Very interested to hear the further thoughts of those unhappy with the Labour proposal on Brexit.

For me the GB parties are putting forward the following 5 options:

1. No deal. Apparently this is not economic catastrophe and the mandate from a plebiscite that promised A and B is to deliver C.
2. A negotiated deal that does not place customs checks between NI and GB if you believe the PM but does if you believe the Brexit secretary or the NI secretary or if you have read the document. A deal that does commit UK to alignment with EU food standards, environment standards and employment rights but can override any of these if the Secretary of State makes a statement to the House of Commons (so not passing a piece of legislation, not passing a vote, just standing and reading out a statement). Those pushing this are not ruling out No Deal as the alternative.
3. Revoke Article 50 with no second referendum and no negotiations with the EU under any circumstances. This is proposed on the basis that it will provide certainty and resolve the issue for good. Those that voted Leave will just give up.
4. Second referendum with Undefined Leave vs Remain. This is proposed on the basis that it will deliver Remain as the electorate are not stupid enough to vote Leave (despite the fact that they already have) and the Leave Campaign(s) are not cunning enough to exploit the opportunity to use an undefined Leave option to promise everything to everyone (despite the fact they already have).
5. Second referendum with a defined Leave option run off against Remain. This will require a period of negotiation to see if any of the 3 deals that EU have offered to date can be improved upon.

Anyone who wants to remain needs to pick option 5. Anyone who wants the default to Remain to be something sensible (or as sensible as Leave can be) needs to pick option 5.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 08:46:40 AM by smelmoth »

smelmoth

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #446 on: November 09, 2019, 08:56:00 AM »
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories arenít exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

Iíd say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #447 on: November 09, 2019, 10:11:09 AM »
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

Modern political campaigns tend to depend on avoiding meeting ordinary voters wherever possible.

Incidents like Gordon Brown's 'bigoted woman' have seen to that.

yellowcard

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #448 on: November 09, 2019, 11:07:16 AM »
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories arenít exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

Iíd say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction

Completely agree. It's crazy how an incompetent charlatan has ended up in this position. I hear some political commentators say that it is all an act and that he is actually a very intelligent man. If that is the case then he is a hell of an actor. I can see it getting a lot worse for him as the campaign goes on because whilst Corbyn gets in among the people and draws vast crowds to rallys, Johnson looks as though he is way out of his comfort zone in having to meet people on the frontline who are living in the real world. His friends in large parts of the media will do their best to make him appear credible but the influence of newspapers is beginning to wane in terms of effecting popular opinion. By the time this election is over I think he will be severely weakened.

When it comes to the public debates all that his rivals will have to do is attack him on these details/facts and he will be left floundering. I think he will try and steer away from as much public scrutiny as possible for fear of being exposed even more.   

manfromdelmonte

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #449 on: November 09, 2019, 11:18:34 AM »
Surely a vote for Sinn Fein is a wasted vote?