Author Topic: Westminster Election 12th December 2019  (Read 77967 times)

BennyHarp

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2019, 04:21:42 PM »
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

Hard to beat being patronised to by a “southerner”.
That was never a square ball!!

Eamonnca1

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2019, 05:07:26 PM »
There's a to-do list, and it needs to be completed in roughly this order:

1 - Resolve the parades issue. Get the residents and the Orange Order to sit down and agree on the terms under which Orange parades could be made welcome in catholic areas, because re-routing parades and avoiding each other like a divorced couple still living in the same house is not a long term solution. (OO to drop the sectarianism, drop the paranoia about 'popery,' drop the political activism, ban paramilitary bands from events, get involved in cross-community outreach, and reposition parades as historical commemorations rather than triumphalist celebrations. In return, residents won't object to the OO still being open to Protestants only, and won't object to a single union jack carried on a pole with a bit of dignity. For previously contentious parades, perform a ceremony in the middle of it where a protestant clergyman leading the parade shakes hands with a waiting catholic priest, exchanges gifts, or makes some sort of gesture of friendship. For the Apprentice Boys in the Lower Ormeau, lay a wreath at the Sean Graham bookies.)

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?

4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.

5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.

6 - Come up with some realistic and detailed proposals for how a UI would look. Will a state called NI continue to exist as a Special Administrative Region like Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China? Could Stormont be retained in its present form with its convoluted power-sharing checks and balances to reassure unionists that they won't get a taste of their own "catholics need not apply" medicine?

7 - When everyone has calmed down, and it looks like reunification can be achieved peacefully and with a decent consensus in favour of it, only then have a border poll.

The shinners, on the other hand, seem to want to do it this way:

1 - Sit on your asses and allow the UK to crash out of the EU

2 - Have a border poll amid all the chaos of Brexit

If we do it the shinner way, it'd be a recipe for an entirely preventable civil war. A border poll at this stage, with the north in its current state, would unleash forces that nobody can control regardless of the outcome. The Brexit disaster has shown us that big constitutional shocks are not to be taken lightly. The drawing of national borders is a delicate matter. We should be a lot more careful about it than the Brits were in the 1920s.

SF are a pro-united Ireland party. But when it comes to the mechanics of achieving unity, they're not very sophisticated in the way they think about it. A lot of them still seem to be stuck in the 1980s mindset of moaning about how unfairly treated they are by the evil Brits, and not much thought is given to the unionists. They still don't seem to have gotten it into their heads that persuading the moderate end of unionism is the key to Irish unity, and the Brits are just bystanders who would be happy to let go of the place. It's like Peter Brooke's "selfish strategic or economic interest" speech never happened. SF seems to think that if they moan loudly enough about how mean the Brits are, and if we "demand" it loudly enough, the Brits will give the north back. They need to grow up.

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM »

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Quote

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?
The phenomenon of "Catholic" and "Protestant" rural towns and villages is worse and more intractable than in the cities. At least city dwellers living in heterogenous zones get to meet and share facilities with "the other side" in city centres. That happens a lot less in the sticks.

Quote
4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.
Its actually voluntary committees, not groups of priests and bishops, who run hospitals and schools here. Kick them out and you'll be left with the same politicians who have run our public services into the ground.

Quote
5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.
No mention of bigoted republican politicians. The idea that all these on both sides will disappear in a few years is laughable.

Eamonnca1

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2019, 05:24:36 PM »
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 05:26:32 PM by Eamonnca1 »

Eamonnca1

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM »
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2019, 05:27:10 PM »
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM »
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

seafoid

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2019, 05:36:59 PM »
Many Unionists would probably get on with a lot of middle class Dubs. The differences are not necessarily as big as people think.
Not so sure about wee Loyalists.
Lookit

screenexile

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2019, 05:39:25 PM »
Trump going on Farage's show to slate Corbyn and tell everyone how great Boris is . . . I'm pretty sure this is playing right into Corbyn's hands!!!

Trump doesn't have the same pull in the UK as he has in the midwest.

Eamonnca1

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM »
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2019, 06:19:31 PM »
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.

delgany

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2019, 06:26:23 PM »
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?

The significant majority of catholic maintained (CCMS) schools are over 60 years old , falling apart , in desperate need of modernisation , so not worth buying or confiscating ( of the church ,who technical own the land and buildings)

They were subject to years of neglect by the Education Authorities at all levels.

Fionntamhnach

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2019, 06:39:15 PM »
Trump going on Farage's show to slate Corbyn and tell everyone how great Boris is . . . I'm pretty sure this is playing right into Corbyn's hands!!!

Trump doesn't have the same pull in the UK as he has in the midwest.

I though you were taking the piss for a moment... apparently not!

Corbyn (and probably the Lib Dems & SNP) couldn't buy such publicity.

And to think that those supporting "Leave" were prior to the referendum going apeshit over Barack Obama's "back of the queue" comments.
Fighting against ignorance on the internet since 1999. It's just taking longer than I hoped.

Eamonnca1

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2019, 06:41:37 PM »
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.

Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

five points

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Re: UK General Election December 2019
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM »
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.