Author Topic: Westminster Election 12th December 2019  (Read 120205 times)

smelmoth

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1890 on: December 21, 2019, 10:15:32 AM »
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today
Not saying that but in the midst of all the criticism on here re that sector we need to remember that was it not for it many like myself would never have been able to go to University.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today

smelmoth

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1891 on: December 21, 2019, 10:56:21 AM »
Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

They don't necessarily have to as the 11+ has already done much of the splitting for them.

Remove the 11+ and suddenly you are faced with a much wider gap between top and bottom within the one class. With the result that many at the upper end will be slowed to a speed nearer the slowest in the "herd".

So what do the Grammar schools do with a kid who isn't so good at say languages or science? What speed are they taught at in those subjects?

All ability classes are an alternative but there are other alternatives - ongoing streaming (i.e. comprehensive education) which can stream kids at different levels in different subjects according to their academic ability. I would be very interested in the basis on which you build your seeming claim that the best way to run education is to 1 exam aged 10/11 and stick them in different buildings, never the twain shall meet and plough on with the "pass" kids at a single speed in all subjects. Your overly simplistic approach to this comes across as dogmatic wrongheadedness. 

In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Are you f**king serious?

I suppose all those engineering jobs in Bombardier or those IT jobs are given to folks that can't add.

You aren't fit for an engineer degree if you cannot tackle sums.

I am going to give the benefit of the non inconsiderable doubt here. I do not think you posted that because you believe it. However you justified it to yourself it is easily dismissed as at best inane and otherwise ignorant drivel.   

the idea that non-grammar school can't do sums or that the 11+ is the barometer of what would make a good employee of Bombardier is complete nonsense.

Your failure to address the point of what skills the modern economy requires and whether the grammar school best delivers these skills could be described as complete and utter.


Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result

Everything doesn't hinge on the result. They still have the opportunity to do their GCSEs and A-levels.

If you believe everything hinges on the result then you are acknowledging that the presence of stupider kids in the same class slows the development of said smarter kid.

You are outlining the supposed benefits of  grammar school education. That system is predicated on a singe exam aged 10/11. For the grammar system to work that exam and its results have to be right. So how does it cope with late development for example? What does it do for great music student? what does it do for the great linguist who does get the maths bit? What des it do for the great future scientist who struggles with the language bit?

and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a “grammar pace” but don’t have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn’t do the test or didn’t perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

You railing against the performance of kids within secondary schools is acknowledging the impact that a slower pace of lesson has on said kid.
What is happening here is that you are failing to address the point

Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?

If I had my way - it would be quite a substantial departure from now - which is not realistic as no-one in charge wants to grasp the nettle.

I would suggest breaking up second level education into lower and upper schools - and have them exclusively deal within each age band (separated sites).

Lower runs from 12-14 years old (inclusive) - key stage 3 essentially. The number of kids within each year of the school (given that it is only 3 years) is large enough to allow effective streamlining and preserving a high pace for the smarter children.  i.e. you might have 8-10 classes per year.

Upper "school" runs from 15-18 - and is not purely academic.
Those that are more practical than academic would go to technical colleges (where they would do a few GCSEs, including maths & english alongside more practical subjects - i.e. plumbing/sparking/etc)
Those that are more academic than practical would go to a more conventional school, where they would sit a high number of GCSEs & then on to A-levels.

So there would be no 11+, there is sufficient pacing given to lessons across the ability range of children - and kids aren't wasting their time at 15-16 years old doing stuff they have no interest in or need to know.
What is this based on? Genuine question and open to examining the response.


yellowcard

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1892 on: January 09, 2020, 11:19:57 PM »
Looks like a deal has been brokered that could see Stormont back up and functioning by tomorrow. Seems to be plenty of financial support in the deal and if parties reject this I think they will have major questions to answer.

Bad day for Jamie Bryson. Irish Sea border approved in Westminster, Irish Language commissioner proposed as part of Stormont deal and Wolfe Tones number 1 in the UK charts!

Snapchap

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1893 on: January 10, 2020, 12:00:29 AM »
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's about uniting a people not a land. Come back to me when you wake up to that realisation.

Missed this reply. Tell me trailer, do you think you could answer my questions with specifics, rather than avoiding them entirely in favour of trotting out a cliched soundbite? If 51%+1 shouldn't be enough to carry a vote on reunification, then what percentage should it have to be? i.e. How much more valuable should a unionist's vote be over that of a nationalist's?

BennyCake

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1894 on: January 10, 2020, 12:01:32 AM »
Looks like a deal has been brokered that could see Stormont back up and functioning by tomorrow. Seems to be plenty of financial support in the deal and if parties reject this I think they will have major questions to answer.

Bad day for Jamie Bryson. Irish Sea border approved in Westminster, Irish Language commissioner proposed as part of Stormont deal and Wolfe Tones number 1 in the UK charts!

It’s like Jamie’s worst nightmare!

Kidder81

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1895 on: January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM »
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

yellowcard

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1896 on: January 10, 2020, 09:21:23 AM »
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They’re not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.

Applesisapples

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1897 on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:04 AM »
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They’re not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.

Kidder81

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1898 on: January 10, 2020, 10:14:24 AM »
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They’re not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.

Really ? Most commentators I have seen I’ve said SF have got the majority of what they wanted

Applesisapples

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1899 on: January 10, 2020, 10:17:48 AM »
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They’re not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.

Really ? Most commentators I have seen I’ve said SF have got the majority of what they wanted
Dondaldson on Nolan, nothing can be done on Irish language without agreement from First and First Minister...a veto... Oh and more promotion of British Culture, coz you know there is no expression of the currently!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 10:19:22 AM by Applesisapples »

Pub Bore

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1900 on: January 10, 2020, 10:31:51 AM »
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1901 on: January 10, 2020, 10:42:47 AM »
All ability classes are an alternative but there are other alternatives - ongoing streaming (i.e. comprehensive education) which can stream kids at different levels in different subjects according to their academic ability.

I don't have time right now for a detailed reply - but you are advocating the comprehensive system which has already been shown in multiple comparisons* across a long time scale to the 11+/grammar system to be delivering lower grades. If that is not "dogmatic wrongheadedness" I don't know what is.

*about as good a comparison as you will get.


As for what the postulation at the end was based on - nothing much beyond instinct and I suppose some limited knowledge of how the systems work (or don't work). You have kids sitting in school wasting their time (and sometimes everyone else's time) doing subjects for which they have neither the need or aptitude. That time could be better spent having them in areas of interest and usefulness.
i usse an speelchekor

RedHand88

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1902 on: January 10, 2020, 01:05:58 PM »
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.

Brian feeney and Newton Emerson, two very respected political pundits disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

Applesisapples

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1903 on: January 10, 2020, 01:48:25 PM »
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.

Brian feeney and Newton Emerson, two very respected political pundits disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

Newton I take with a pinch of salt, Brian I respect and broadly agree with most of his analysis, and he is right about Jeffery. my point was that Wee Jeff was making it hard for SF to sign up. If it turns out the DUP have changed or don't veto Irish interests then happy days. But history tells a different story. Irishness should be on par with Britishness but that still is not the case.

Kidder81

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1904 on: January 11, 2020, 02:01:04 PM »
So the SF DUP carve up begins immediately, DUP will vote for Alex Maskey as speaker