Author Topic: Westminster Election 12th December 2019  (Read 120195 times)

michaelg

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1875 on: December 18, 2019, 10:20:42 PM »
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

 ::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.


Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration
Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

Three reasons;

You started your post with a snide remark.

You didnít acknowledge any of the genuine points he had brought up and attempted to belittle the concerns

He literally started his post by saying that integrated education was a fantastic idea (which I also happen to agree with), so not sure why a genuine person would have felt the need to agree (twice) but in a curiously confrontational manner.

Cheers
Great stuff. At least we are all in agreement.

Franko

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1876 on: December 18, 2019, 11:19:30 PM »
Apology accepted.

Fionntamhnach

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1877 on: December 18, 2019, 11:19:57 PM »
Interestingly the newest education powerhouse, Estonia, do not stream children

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-50590581

Because the kids are self-motivated:

https://estonianworld.com/knowledge/pisa-study-estonian-pupils-are-the-best-in-europe/

Quote
According to the study, majority (77%) of Estonian students exhibit growth mindset Ė they believe they are capable of improving their intelligence and are willing to put effort into their own development in order to secure a better future. This is the highest among the OECD countries. 70% of students plan to attain higher education; the most popular professions are ICT specialist, doctor, CEO, architect and psychologist.

Our lot are anything but.

Its even more difficult when some parents don't give two flying fukks about their kid's education either.

From the original (BBC) report Kidder linked to...

Rando Kuustik, is the principal of Jakob Westholmi Gumnaasium in the Estonian capital, with almost 1,000 pupils and around 80 staff.

"If you teach them by different level of abilities you segregate them. Why would we do that in schools?"

He's explaining to me why every subject in his school is taught in all-ability classes.

Putting students in different groups by subject or overall attainment, known as sets or streams in the UK, is very rare in Estonia.

Teachers are expected to find ways of levelling up pupils from all backgrounds within a couple of years.

There is a national curriculum, but relatively few measures to hold schools to account through results.


A few years back, Finland was singled out as the education bright light of Europe, and in the latest PISA tests have only just fallen slightly behind Estonia, while Canada is also one of the best western countries for across-the-board outcomes. Ireland (Republic of, just in case) also scores well on reading, which is a very notable performance considering that English is regarded has being much more difficult to comprehend between how it is written & and spoken, compared to both Finnish & Estonian which have a much closer & reliable link in its grammer & pronunciation. Again, neither the Finns or (within the public education sector) Canadians segregate students into different schools on academic ability, at least by 15 years old, which is the age of the students taking these assessments.

There's a myth that the education system in NI is somehow "world class" or "among the best in Europe" etc. whereas speaking to those involved in education in contentinal Europe will be wondering what are you talking about? Repeated PISA assessments over the years haven't shown NI students to be well ahead of their counterparts south of the border or over in Britain - England in particular. There is a difference in having an education system that is fit to develop children & young adults for the workforce, economic and social development, and having one to silently but effectively segregate less on academic development and more on social class - the original so-called tripartite system in NI achieved this to a certain extent in the past, but is now questionable in the current time - not helped in that selective grammar schools must, by law, take in as many students as possible that have applied for places rather than being restricted to taking in only a certain percentage of pupils based on both a minimum score on 11+ testing or equivalents, as well as then narrowing the criteria for oversubscription.

However, there's too many interests with fingers in pies all over the place when it concerns education in NI, and as a result there is very little constructive debate about it other that two polar opposite opinions, namely "everything is fine" and "burn it all down and make everything comprehensive", and that it is compared to no other country other than England.
"I can't be arsed any more; too much ignorance, bigotry, dogma, idiocy & retreat from reason"

thewobbler

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1878 on: December 18, 2019, 11:45:51 PM »
For the life of me Iíll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Do we wait 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 years and see if there has been an economic impact?

Do we take a s sample and measure IQs before and after education?

Do we take a sample just before university and ask them if theyíre happy? Surely we canít ask them anything else as they canít compare it with anything else?

Do we ask the teachers? But surely their opinions are influenced entirely by either the socio-economic make-up of their catchment area, and b) whether their salary can attain a satisfactory standard of living close to their workplace?

Or maybe we just look at Twitter and see whoís making the most noise in either direction?

óó

I just canít help believing that the assessors/researchers, regardless of their pedagogical background, are more likely to observe/manufacture improvements when reviewing unusual educational structures.

Basically, bias.



Fionntamhnach

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1879 on: December 19, 2019, 12:46:01 AM »
For the life of me Iíll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Wobbler, just because yourself and probably quite a few other people can't understand how it can be evaluated doesn't mean that no one can.


Basically, experts.

(P.S. No, I'm not one)
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michaelg

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1880 on: December 19, 2019, 07:32:59 AM »
Apology accepted.
Someone was up late for a school night.

thewobbler

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1881 on: December 19, 2019, 08:18:23 AM »
For the life of me Iíll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Wobbler, just because yourself and probably quite a few other people can't understand how it can be evaluated doesn't mean that no one can.


Basically, experts.

(P.S. No, I'm not one)

Fionn. Iíve got very little expertise in anything in this world, but I can generally accept, and understand comparison tables across subjects.

That some experts have ďprovedĒ to other experts that they can measure the immeasurable just doesnít sit well with me. I believe itís a method for delivering educated bias rather than a comparison system.

Franko

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1882 on: December 19, 2019, 09:02:21 AM »

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1883 on: December 19, 2019, 09:04:23 AM »
Repeated PISA assessments over the years haven't shown NI students to be well ahead of their counterparts south of the border or over in Britain - England in particular.

The the PISA assessments are consistently out of kilter with results. NI is significantly ahead of England in most metrics.

If your assertion is true - then it serves to undermine either the Key Stage 4 & Key Stage 5 exam system or the PISA assessments.


GCSE
https://www.naht.org.uk/news-and-opinion/news/curriculum-and-assessment-news/2019-gcse-results-statistics-england-wales-and-northern-ireland/

20.7% results in England were 7/A or better
67.1% of results in England were 4/C or better

30.5% of results in NI were 7/A or better
82.2% of results in NI were 4/C or better.


A-level
https://www.naht.org.uk/news-and-opinion/news/curriculum-and-assessment-news/statistics-published-2019-as-and-a-level-results-england-wales-and-northern-ireland/

25.2% of results in England were A or better
97.5% of results in England were A*-E

30.9% of results in NI were A or better
98.3% of results in NI were A*-E


I don't know about comparisons outside the system (i.e. across Europe) - it becomes a more difficult and less accurate comparison to make.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 09:06:01 AM by RadioGAAGAA »
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RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1884 on: December 19, 2019, 09:07:20 AM »
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

I suspect it is not myself that has the problem.

Are you denying the existence of the motorway network?
Or are you denying that they are of great help to the country?
Or are you denying the EU was deeply involved in the construction of the motorways?
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five points

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1885 on: December 19, 2019, 10:44:29 AM »
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

I suspect it is not myself that has the problem.

Are you denying the existence of the motorway network?
Or are you denying that they are of great help to the country?
Or are you denying the EU was deeply involved in the construction of the motorways?


Yes I'm denying no. 3. 

Most of the motorway network was built in the past 15 years with very little help from the EU. "Free" EU money for Irish motorways more or less dried up in 2002.  The later funding for recent motorway projects was done on the basis that we'd soon be a net contributor so in effect we were spending our own money via a middleman.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/brakes-go-on-eu-money-for-motorway-projects-1.1103127
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 10:53:49 AM by five points »

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1886 on: December 19, 2019, 11:35:34 AM »
So of the contributions to motorways between 1994 and 2006, the funding breakdown was approximately:

EU: 19%
Govt: 67
Private: 14%

~20% of contribution is not deeply involved?
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armaghniac

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1887 on: December 19, 2019, 11:37:21 AM »
For the life of me Iíll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Do we wait 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 years and see if there has been an economic impact?

Do we take a s sample and measure IQs before and after education?

Do we take a sample just before university and ask them if theyíre happy? Surely we canít ask them anything else as they canít compare it with anything else?

Do we ask the teachers? But surely their opinions are influenced entirely by either the socio-economic make-up of their catchment area, and b) whether their salary can attain a satisfactory standard of living close to their workplace?

Or maybe we just look at Twitter and see whoís making the most noise in either direction?

óó

I just canít help believing that the assessors/researchers, regardless of their pedagogical background, are more likely to observe/manufacture improvements when reviewing unusual educational structures.

Basically, bias.

I don't see why it is impossible to measure whether people can read and do maths.
There is a broader education agenda, and this might be harder to measure.


Yes I'm denying no. 3. 

Most of the motorway network was built in the past 15 years with very little help from the EU. "Free" EU money for Irish motorways more or less dried up in 2002.  The later funding for recent motorway projects was done on the basis that we'd soon be a net contributor so in effect we were spending our own money via a middleman.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/brakes-go-on-eu-money-for-motorway-projects-1.1103127

You are both right, the EU money was very helpful for the most needed motorways, while the later expanded programme was mainly funded from Irish sources.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

tbrick18

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1888 on: December 19, 2019, 01:40:56 PM »
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.

This reminds me of conservative arguments against sex education in schools. "It should be taught in the home!" they say. Great. What if it's not taught in the home?  In that case if it's not taught in the schools then it's not taught at all. Same goes for respect for people from different backgrounds.

The segregation of society in the north is hardly the poster child for community relations. Segregated education has been a failure. It's long past time to move on past it.

That's not what I said. I said full responsibility shouldn't lie with a school. It needs to start at home for any hope of the integrated school to have a chance of having an impact on the child.
Completely different argument than sex education, where I agree it 100% should be taught in schools.  But as far as I'm aware there are no sex education education sectors. I'd also doubt very much that kids will get a conflicting view of sex Ed at home than they would in school.


tbrick18

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Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
« Reply #1889 on: December 19, 2019, 01:46:25 PM »
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

The point is that both Independant and government studies have said we will be considerably worse off after studying the data available.
Whereas the tory government have a vague notion of brexit being good for everyone.

If we can't be guided in our opinions by multiple studies by different bodies coming up with broadly the same analysis then we probably shouldn't take medical advice or sail off on a ship for fear of sailing off tne edge of the earth. Lol.