Author Topic: You're All British in the North Now!!  (Read 3906 times)

screenexile

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You're All British in the North Now!!
« on: October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


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People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Windmill abu

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2019, 04:46:47 PM »
Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
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David McKeown

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.

bennydorano

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2019, 05:53:43 PM »
I've been thinking about post Brexit possibilities and what actually is it that makes you an Irish Citizen - say my kids (or me for that matter) want to live in the EU (Continent) at some point in the future - they all have Irish Passports but have no Irish Social Security / National Insurance number etc... Will Passport only cut it???

Blowitupref

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 07:01:57 PM »
I always thought Britain was Wales, England, Scotland. Add in Northern Ireland and you have the United Kingdom?
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Main Street

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

omaghjoe

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 11:56:29 PM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Surprisingly I agree with this to an extent...

I've come to view passports and citizenship for what they are, that is a document that entitles you access and protection to the laws of a sovereign state and allows you to enter other sovereign states.
Even tho sovereign states especially European ones frequently project themselves as nation states and equate citizenship to cultural and ethnic identity, it certainly has no right to include or exclude anyone cultural identity, because they are feck all to do your cultural identity, in fact they are really just a parasite of cultural identity that uses it for their own uses.

Bottom line is....an Irish passport doesn't make me feel more or less Irish and a British passport certainly doesn't make me feel British

If something else was desired from the Good Friday agreement it should have been more explicit because the way it is worded means nothing, the Brits prob saw a weak negotiating team on the nationalist side that didn't really fully understand things from a legal viewpoint.

Fionntamhnach

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 01:46:01 AM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Surprisingly I agree with this to an extent...

I've come to view passports and citizenship for what they are, that is a document that entitles you access and protection to the laws of a sovereign state and allows you to enter other sovereign states.
Even tho sovereign states especially European ones frequently project themselves as nation states and equate citizenship to cultural and ethnic identity, it certainly has no right to include or exclude anyone cultural identity, because they are feck all to do your cultural identity, in fact they are really just a parasite of cultural identity that uses it for their own uses.

Bottom line is....an Irish passport doesn't make me feel more or less Irish and a British passport certainly doesn't make me feel British

If something else was desired from the Good Friday agreement it should have been more explicit because the way it is worded means nothing, the Brits prob saw a weak negotiating team on the nationalist side that didn't really fully understand things from a legal viewpoint.

Again, I'd largely concur. The international ways and means of how one is determined to be a citizen, how it can be obtained and how it can be passed on through blood lineage etc. is enormously complex and varies by country and diplomatic recognition. However in today's world there are some basic principles - that nation states are the ultimate arbitrator as to whom they recognise as being one of their citizens, that they have the right to determine how someone legally becomes a citizen of theirs, that those whom hold multiple citizenship don't (in general) be allowed to avail of diplomatic help of another country they're a citizen of if they are already in a country which recognises them as a citizen of theirs, and that other countries don't make demands on how others determine citizenship.

Obligatory "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer.

The De Souza case is reconciling the application of British Citizenship through numerous Acts of Parliament, and the right of persons in Northern Ireland to identify as British, Irish or both. The problem I see here is with the word "identity" - this is largely ambiguous as to its interpretation as anyone can potentially identify themselves as anything they want to be. But identifying as something on its own does not necessarily hold up in law. Had the Good Friday Agreement said "Citizen(ship)" or "Nationality" rather than "Identity" then much less ambiguity would likely result which would have demanded binding legislation.

British Nationality law presently determines whom automatically derives what category of British citizenship via birth. In this sense, anyone qualifying for British citizenship is subject to the same rules in NI as they are in Britain, any other nationality notwithstanding. Emma De Souza says that she is not a British citizen because she has never recognised herself as having a British identity, but as I understand it this holds no legal weight. Again, as an international diplomatic principle one cannot passively renounce a citizenship bestowed on to them, it has to be actively done via due process and most countries will not allow someone to actively renounce their citizenship lest they become stateless (the USA is a notable exception) but as Emma De Souza holds Irish citizenship, that last point is not valid here. Emma herself may not recognise her British citizenship, but the UK does, and under various laws and treaties will only be formally unrecognised by a due process to renounce it.

This is not as uncommon situation as it sounds. For example, if your bloodline goes back to a parent/grandparent etc. whom was born in the USA, it's likely that they consider you to be a citizen of theirs even if you have never stepped foot in the country under the jus sanguinis principle. This has ramifications if you ever intend to visit the USA, as American citizens are supposed to only enter and leave the country with an American passport if they hold dual/multiple citizenship, as well as taxation implications as American citizens have to file tax returns on their worldwide income even if they don't live in the country (AFAIK only Eritrea has a similar law requiring citizens to report their taxable income no matter where in the world they're located, along with the USA). It also comes up in cases for countries which have compulsory military service, whereby those whom are expected to serve can include those whose citizenship was derived by bloodline having been born outside of the country. For example there have been several cases of young men in their later teens and early adult years visiting their parents homeland who have been detained by local authorities even though they don't hold a passport for said country and entered it with a passport of their country of birth. South Korea and Singapore are two notable countries where these incidents occur of such persons being forcibly enlisted as they consider them as being a citizen of theirs. And in those situations, the "home" country is often reluctant to get involved because of the principle of not interfering in a country where a national of theirs holds multiple citizenships and is in the country of one they hold.

Going back closer to home, it's suspected that the UK Home Office has been taking a more recent hard line of the principle of British citizenship as a matter of political expediency regarding immigration and residential status, and that this case is a fall out from it - but I'd guess that changes to British Nationality law to technically allow say someone born in NI not to be automatically deemed a British Citizen at birth would be a political and legal nightmare, especially as Irish citizenship does not in itself be automatically granted at birth for anyone born in NI who would otherwise be automatically granted it were they born in the 26. Instead they have the legal right to such but have to actively claim it by themselves or through their parents/guardians.

I'd say the De Souza's will keep on fighting their case until they either decisively win or they exhaust it. It could go all the way to the ECHR, though if it does it might have wider ramifications than just that concerning the GFA. 
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David McKeown

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 07:51:49 AM »
The starting part on any form of treaty or statutory interpretation is you give meaning to all words unless to do so would result in an absurdity and that youíve to try and give effect to the intent of the legislature.

The GFA as itís been interpreted conveys no special position under UK law for any Irish citizen yet the position of Irish citizens is particularly catered for and mentioned to the exclusion of all other nationalities in the GFA. That to me makes me feel it was the intention that some form of special status over and above what say Americans or the French born in the UK would have was to be created.

From the way the Belfast agreement is worded I can understand why this decision is as it was. My only argument is that wasnít the intended outcome of at least some of those negotiating the agreement. If not what was the point of specifically including the reference to Irish citizens within the GFA

David McKeown

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 08:00:08 AM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Thatís not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you canít action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?

Armagh18

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 08:05:40 AM »
Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
Never thought of that, good point??

Armagh18

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 08:06:37 AM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.
Allegedly youíd lose your right to vote in a border poll then?

under the bar

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 08:51:31 AM »
Rohhhl 'owt the barrel...

screenexile

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 09:30:23 AM »
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Thatís not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you canít action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?

I always thought having a passport for a particular country gave you access to that countries rights?? I have 3 passports and wouldn't be keen on renouncing any of them!

red hander

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Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 09:59:59 AM »
I'd say it's not the end of this yet as regards the courts. As an oul bigoted ballix from Ballymena famously said: Never, Never, Never!!!!!!