Author Topic: split the dubs in 4  (Read 2309 times)

moysider

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2019, 12:12:27 AM »
No one is making Dublin poorer if they are giving them a new elite competition (as in a revamped Interpro) to compete in. In fact it should make them better as the level of their opposition will be higher. And by putting the Dubs into that competition it would breathe new lift into it

It will also allow the rest of the counties to compete at a level that is moderately fair to each other.

I wouldn't cross the road to see an Interpro. The Railway Cup died for a reason. Zero stomach for it. I'm old enough to have seen likes of Paddy Cullen and Jimmy Keaveney play Railway Cup, and it was great but an Interpro in football is about as likely to get popular support as Irish TV bringing back The Riardons, Quicksilver and Mart and Market.
Need to go forward.

It died because there wasnt the will to market it.. If the Dubs were in it there would be renewed interest....2 groups of 3 with a final would have far more potential that the flogging to death of counties in the super 8s

Disagree. There was no will to market it because it was no longer a runner. I cannot imagine anybody getting excited by a Connacht team taking on Dublin. I cannot identify with a Connacht football team. Back in the day they were just exhibition games and people attended because there was a chance to see great players that you wouldn't otherwise see. Nobody was going home after punching the air and going ' yeah, we beat Munster or whoever'
 As a Mayo fan I want to see Mayo challenge Dublin any time we can. I love the Connacht crest and flag but not what I want to be carrying into a football game v Dubs. It's a non-runner so no point debating it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 12:20:18 AM by moysider »

omaghjoe

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2019, 12:41:18 AM »
No one is making Dublin poorer if they are giving them a new elite competition (as in a revamped Interpro) to compete in. In fact it should make them better as the level of their opposition will be higher. And by putting the Dubs into that competition it would breathe new lift into it

It will also allow the rest of the counties to compete at a level that is moderately fair to each other.

I wouldn't cross the road to see an Interpro. The Railway Cup died for a reason. Zero stomach for it. I'm old enough to have seen likes of Paddy Cullen and Jimmy Keaveney play Railway Cup, and it was great but an Interpro in football is about as likely to get popular support as Irish TV bringing back The Riardons, Quicksilver and Mart and Market.
Need to go forward.

It died because there wasnt the will to market it.. If the Dubs were in it there would be renewed interest....2 groups of 3 with a final would have far more potential that the flogging to death of counties in the super 8s

Disagree. There was no will to market it because it was no longer a runner. I cannot imagine anybody getting excited by a Connacht team taking on Dublin. I cannot identify with a Connacht football team. Back in the day they were just exhibition games and people attended because there was a chance to see great players that you wouldn't otherwise see. Nobody was going home after punching the air and going ' yeah, we beat Munster or whoever'
 As a Mayo fan I want to see Mayo challenge Dublin any time we can. I love the Connacht crest and flag but not what I want to be carrying into a football game v Dubs. It's a non-runner so no point debating it.

Ah I see well your doing a good job there!

People would get excited about it if it was done right.... sure every professional sport in the world manufactures team loyalty and so on. Sure look at professional ruby in Ireland and Wales those teams were more or less manufactured and now they have legions of loyal fans, not to mention American Sports franchises.

TheGreatest

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2019, 08:38:22 AM »
Does this include splitting the Dublin Hurler into 4? and underage? or clubs team not allowed to compete in outside of Dublin or is it just the footballers because they are winning?



magpie seanie

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2019, 08:47:14 AM »
Dublin cannot be split. The onus on the GAA is to allow other teams to get to compete at that level consistently. That will take initiative but there is no way the Dublin genie can be put back in the bottle. They have advanced the game to a new level and to dumb them down in some way would be more damaging than the perceived damage they are supposed to be doing now.

There are dominant teams in other sports but I don't think anybody is suggesting the All-Black brand should be scrapped and play 3 NZ teams instead to give other countries a chance! Say a Maori team ( non -starter because it would be racist), and North and South Island team. It doesn't wash and the Dublin brand is as important in Gaelic football.

The obvious answer - and it will eventually happen - is a degree of professionalism that should allow 6-8 teams compete with Dublin. A 2 tier system is imminent and professionalism will follow as sure as night follows day. Gombeen boards will have to get in the marketing men and push on.
 
There is money to be invested and made here and it has to happen and the whole game will benefit from knock-on effect as has been seen in Soccer and Rugby even though at the time player's wages in soccer and any professionalism in rugby were supposed to ruin things. They skyrocketed in popularity. 10-12 years ago Connacht Rugby was almost jettisoned because of concerns about its viability.

As things stand I believe there would be enough fan base and sponsorship in counties like Kerry, Donegal, Tyron, Mayo, Kildare and Meath to drive this. Maybe others but dual counties like Cork and Galway seem to have an awful 'fickle' supporter tradition.

Imo, there is no going back as regards the development of a sport if it wants to survive in any meaningful way.

The excellence of this Dublin team should be matched in the future but that can't happen if there is no more Dublin.

If we are to save the old game we need to allow other teams to get better and not make Dublin poorer.  Most sport does not work like that apart from horse racing where the better horses carry more weight.


So the solution is professionalism. 7-9 counties break away and fcuk the rest? Will we be allowed supplty players to our overlords?

Like Hound's amalgamations solution it's completely against the ethos of the GAA and what the organisation is supposed to stand for. People keep making this mistake. The Intercounty game is the icing on the cake - it's not the whole cake. If the icing is going to ruin the cake, you change the icing.

magpie seanie

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2019, 08:53:23 AM »
Would all Dublin fans be again a Dublin North and Dublin South team? I'd say 1 or both teams would go close to winning an AI (and give other teams a bit more of a chance).
Well county identity is obviously a huge part of GAA, so most people are instantly against splitting their own county, or combining their county with someone else.

Splitting Dublin is worthy of consideration. But would it solve a whole lot other than helping Kerry win more All Irelands?

Equally worthy of consideration would be to play the league as is, but combine teams for the All Ireland. Two six team divisions, top 2 in each division makes the semis.

Dublin
Kerry
Cork
Rest of Munster
Mayo/Sligo/Leitrim
Galway/Ros
South Leinster
North Leinster
Tyrone/Derry
Donegal/Fermanagh
Cavan/Monaghan
Armagh/Down/Antrim

Every player and every fan could have aspirations of winning Sam, although cyclically, some would not contend.
The above split is just top of the head (Cork on their own, but they should be challenging even if they’re nowhere near at the moment) but I’m sure there’d be a better way of doing it, but as an idea it would be better to try it with hurling first where the disparity is even greater.


So instead of splitting one county, we amalgamate all but 3? To avoid doing the obvious, we discommode 28 counties who will not field in the All Ireland football chapionship? This is what the GPA and the advocates of professionalism want. I wouldn't be arsed going to see any games in a competition like this.

What chance does a young kid in Dublin have of representing their county? My cousin's daughter has gone through round after round of trials for Dublin u-13 girls.

Painting everyone who raises these questions as a crank or nutter isn't accurate or fair. I really admire what Dublin GAA has done and think the Dublin senior team are absolutely brilliant and will go down in history as one of if not the best ever. I think the coaching and tactics are ahead of everyone else (which money can't be blamed for) and they have pioneeered many aspect of gaelic football, the vast majority positive. However, I do think their success has bubbled up issues that should have been addressed a long time ago. When Peter Quinn's committee came up with the split proposals back in the 90's he was right. I understand county loyalty but I'm not convinced the negatives of the proposal outweigh the potential gains.

What chance does any kid have of getting to an elite level in any sport - anywhere?
Playing hurling for Kilkenny?
Playing for Brazil? Yet they play on.
All the kids that play basketball in USA - how many play NBA?
All the kids that do athletics in this country? I'm sure most would love to represent Ireland in Olympics but for 99.999% of them, they haven't a chance.
Same for kids that go out and try and play snooker, golf, tennis, ride horses etc.


There's a far better chance for a kid in Kilkenny to make the county team than a kid in Dublin to make the county team. Unless you don't actually understand the populations of both counties. It's blatantly obvious Dublin have at least 50 if not more county standard players (their 3rd team is competitive and has won the O'Byrne Cup in recent times). Most counties are lucky to have 15-20.

I'm not interested with comparisons with professional sports even though kids and parents are recklessly sold this impossible dream with regularity.

sekibanki

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2019, 09:19:07 AM »
Does this include splitting the Dublin Hurler into 4? and underage? or clubs team not allowed to compete in outside of Dublin or is it just the footballers because they are winning?
The hurlers were split into two before, for a different reason. Same with Down.
Overall, the hurlers are more open to experimenting with structures. There effectively isn't any true provincial championship in hurling any longer, and its arguably better for it.

TheGreatest

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2019, 10:33:25 AM »
Does this include splitting the Dublin Hurler into 4? and underage? or clubs team not allowed to compete in outside of Dublin or is it just the footballers because they are winning?
The hurlers were split into two before, for a different reason. Same with Down.
Overall, the hurlers are more open to experimenting with structures. There effectively isn't any true provincial championship in hurling any longer, and its arguably better for it.

I agree, the football championship structure needs to replaced, Senior , inter, junior, like the nearly every sporting competition in the world, there are different levels.


Enjoy:

https://gaablogs1916.wordpress.com/2018/09/10/ewan-mackenna-the-gaa-worlds-equivalent-of-a-flat-earther/

moysider

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2019, 10:49:10 AM »
Would all Dublin fans be again a Dublin North and Dublin South team? I'd say 1 or both teams would go close to winning an AI (and give other teams a bit more of a chance).
Well county identity is obviously a huge part of GAA, so most people are instantly against splitting their own county, or combining their county with someone else.

Splitting Dublin is worthy of consideration. But would it solve a whole lot other than helping Kerry win more All Irelands?

Equally worthy of consideration would be to play the league as is, but combine teams for the All Ireland. Two six team divisions, top 2 in each division makes the semis.

Dublin
Kerry
Cork
Rest of Munster
Mayo/Sligo/Leitrim
Galway/Ros
South Leinster
North Leinster
Tyrone/Derry
Donegal/Fermanagh
Cavan/Monaghan
Armagh/Down/Antrim

Every player and every fan could have aspirations of winning Sam, although cyclically, some would not contend.
The above split is just top of the head (Cork on their own, but they should be challenging even if they’re nowhere near at the moment) but I’m sure there’d be a better way of doing it, but as an idea it would be better to try it with hurling first where the disparity is even greater.


So instead of splitting one county, we amalgamate all but 3? To avoid doing the obvious, we discommode 28 counties who will not field in the All Ireland football chapionship? This is what the GPA and the advocates of professionalism want. I wouldn't be arsed going to see any games in a competition like this.

What chance does a young kid in Dublin have of representing their county? My cousin's daughter has gone through round after round of trials for Dublin u-13 girls.

Painting everyone who raises these questions as a crank or nutter isn't accurate or fair. I really admire what Dublin GAA has done and think the Dublin senior team are absolutely brilliant and will go down in history as one of if not the best ever. I think the coaching and tactics are ahead of everyone else (which money can't be blamed for) and they have pioneeered many aspect of gaelic football, the vast majority positive. However, I do think their success has bubbled up issues that should have been addressed a long time ago. When Peter Quinn's committee came up with the split proposals back in the 90's he was right. I understand county loyalty but I'm not convinced the negatives of the proposal outweigh the potential gains.

What chance does any kid have of getting to an elite level in any sport - anywhere?
Playing hurling for Kilkenny?
Playing for Brazil? Yet they play on.
All the kids that play basketball in USA - how many play NBA?
All the kids that do athletics in this country? I'm sure most would love to represent Ireland in Olympics but for 99.999% of them, they haven't a chance.
Same for kids that go out and try and play snooker, golf, tennis, ride horses etc.


There's a far better chance for a kid in Kilkenny to make the county team than a kid in Dublin to make the county team. Unless you don't actually understand the populations of both counties. It's blatantly obvious Dublin have at least 50 if not more county standard players (their 3rd team is competitive and has won the O'Byrne Cup in recent times). Most counties are lucky to have 15-20.

I'm not interested with comparisons with professional sports even though kids and parents are recklessly sold this impossible dream with regularity.

If it was just a numbers game Ireland should be able to complete with England in rugby but we regularly beat them. Why? Because our structures are as good as theirs. I know you don’t like comparing to professional sports but .........
If Dublin are ahead because of numbers alone they should have been there decades ago. If it’s because of other reasons then those advantages need to be applied to other teams too. Reigning Dublin in is not the way forward imo.

Rossfan

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2019, 11:12:01 AM »
So we give Laythrum €1m and a load of GPO/GDAs or Whatever and they'll do 4 in a row ::)
Of course it's a numbers game.
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Owenmoresider

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2019, 12:38:57 PM »
Dublin cannot be split. The onus on the GAA is to allow other teams to get to compete at that level consistently. That will take initiative but there is no way the Dublin genie can be put back in the bottle. They have advanced the game to a new level and to dumb them down in some way would be more damaging than the perceived damage they are supposed to be doing now.

There are dominant teams in other sports but I don't think anybody is suggesting the All-Black brand should be scrapped and play 3 NZ teams instead to give other countries a chance! Say a Maori team ( non -starter because it would be racist), and North and South Island team. It doesn't wash and the Dublin brand is as important in Gaelic football.

The obvious answer - and it will eventually happen - is a degree of professionalism that should allow 6-8 teams compete with Dublin. A 2 tier system is imminent and professionalism will follow as sure as night follows day. Gombeen boards will have to get in the marketing men and push on.
 
There is money to be invested and made here and it has to happen and the whole game will benefit from knock-on effect as has been seen in Soccer and Rugby even though at the time player's wages in soccer and any professionalism in rugby were supposed to ruin things. They skyrocketed in popularity. 10-12 years ago Connacht Rugby was almost jettisoned because of concerns about its viability.

As things stand I believe there would be enough fan base and sponsorship in counties like Kerry, Donegal, Tyron, Mayo, Kildare and Meath to drive this. Maybe others but dual counties like Cork and Galway seem to have an awful 'fickle' supporter tradition.

Imo, there is no going back as regards the development of a sport if it wants to survive in any meaningful way.

The excellence of this Dublin team should be matched in the future but that can't happen if there is no more Dublin.

If we are to save the old game we need to allow other teams to get better and not make Dublin poorer.  Most sport does not work like that apart from horse racing where the better horses carry more weight.
Easy for someone to suggest this kind of future setup who can be fairly confident in the knowledge that their team are likely to be part of the party. Screw the rest of us looking in from the outside.

moysider

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2019, 12:33:22 AM »
Dublin cannot be split. The onus on the GAA is to allow other teams to get to compete at that level consistently. That will take initiative but there is no way the Dublin genie can be put back in the bottle. They have advanced the game to a new level and to dumb them down in some way would be more damaging than the perceived damage they are supposed to be doing now.

There are dominant teams in other sports but I don't think anybody is suggesting the All-Black brand should be scrapped and play 3 NZ teams instead to give other countries a chance! Say a Maori team ( non -starter because it would be racist), and North and South Island team. It doesn't wash and the Dublin brand is as important in Gaelic football.

The obvious answer - and it will eventually happen - is a degree of professionalism that should allow 6-8 teams compete with Dublin. A 2 tier system is imminent and professionalism will follow as sure as night follows day. Gombeen boards will have to get in the marketing men and push on.
 
There is money to be invested and made here and it has to happen and the whole game will benefit from knock-on effect as has been seen in Soccer and Rugby even though at the time player's wages in soccer and any professionalism in rugby were supposed to ruin things. They skyrocketed in popularity. 10-12 years ago Connacht Rugby was almost jettisoned because of concerns about its viability.

As things stand I believe there would be enough fan base and sponsorship in counties like Kerry, Donegal, Tyron, Mayo, Kildare and Meath to drive this. Maybe others but dual counties like Cork and Galway seem to have an awful 'fickle' supporter tradition.

Imo, there is no going back as regards the development of a sport if it wants to survive in any meaningful way.

The excellence of this Dublin team should be matched in the future but that can't happen if there is no more Dublin.

If we are to save the old game we need to allow other teams to get better and not make Dublin poorer.  Most sport does not work like that apart from horse racing where the better horses carry more weight.
Easy for someone to suggest this kind of future setup who can be fairly confident in the knowledge that their team are likely to be part of the party. Screw the rest of us looking in from the outside.

No. A lot of teams already looking-in  for years in current system. If Sam Maguire is to be a realistic objective for every county then a lot more counties, other than Dublin,  would needed to be divided into 2/3/4 to give the counties of smaller population a shot.

moysider

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2019, 01:09:57 AM »
So we give Laythrum €1m and a load of GPO/GDAs or Whatever and they'll do 4 in a row ::)
Of course it's a numbers game.

Ah now Rossfan! Your're a gas man altogether.

GDA = Grangegorman Development Agency or Greater Dublin Area?
GPO = General Post Office?

I'm a bit confused here. Some people are putting Dublin's dominance down to numbers. For others it is funding and home advantage.

The numbers will always kill the Leitrims of this  world but that did not start in 2011. So picking Leitrim to make a point is a bit naughty.
My point is that several counties -including your own - could compete, if they had similar resources as the Dublin team. Other than numbers that can be done.
 The point about it being so hard to get to play for the Dubs now as an excuse is risible. If a kid wants to play for Dublin, he wants to play for Dublin - not a divisional team. Dublin is an identity.  Same as Roscommon. Same as Leitrim.
Where I would look at maybe freeing up the Dublin numbers is players with parentage and even grand-parentage being able to play for another county. if they choose to do so. Cox. outa Kerry did it and you'd wonder wtf. was Eamonn Fitzmaurice gawking at down the years.
 Of course a lot of dubs with culchie parents will have no interest. but some will.
This might cheer you up a bit Ros.. A kid  from around here in Mayo development squads would rather play for Roscommon- ( an hour away from Ballagh. before the jibes come in)- because his parents are Ros to the core. He's a damn good footballer too and his cousin plays for Mayo.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 01:24:38 AM by moysider »

Rossfan

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2019, 09:15:55 AM »
Last 3 small Counties to win Sam -
Offaly 36 years ago
Cavan 67 years ago
Ros 75 years ago.
We can't split Dublin because young lads mightnt be able to dream of playing for Fingal but the same young lad could dream of playing for 4 Counties where his grandparents came from?
How many Ros folk would get excited if we won something with about 20 "heritage" players on a panel of 30.
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clarshack

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2019, 10:00:39 AM »
How many Dublin based League Of Ireland Soccer teams are there? If there was only one soccer team allowed to operate out of Dublin how much superior would that team become over the rest of the teams in the league?

johnnycool

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Re: split the dubs in 4
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2019, 10:35:58 AM »
Does this include splitting the Dublin Hurler into 4? and underage? or clubs team not allowed to compete in outside of Dublin or is it just the footballers because they are winning?
The hurlers were split into two before, for a different reason. Same with Down.
Overall, the hurlers are more open to experimenting with structures. There effectively isn't any true provincial championship in hurling any longer, and its arguably better for it.

Had to think about that one for a while and whilst you're correct to an extent Finglas and South Down were treated as development squads where hurlers from these areas were afforded a place in the lower hurling leagues but also hurlers of the required standard played with the first team, so not entirely a split as others would interpret it.


Whilst Hurling counties make up about 9 or so counties these changes needed ratified by a majority of the other counties who lets be honest couldn't give a shite either way what impacts the top tier hurling counties impose on their own lower level hurling teams as can be seen by how there's no relegation or even the relegated team in Div1B gets another bite at staying up if they can beat the Div2 winners.
Doesn't happen anywhere else in the GAA world.