Author Topic: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage  (Read 1692 times)

johnnycool

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2019, 09:27:09 AM »
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.

How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?

Dinny Breen

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2019, 09:36:33 AM »
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldnít do it because of UEFA rules.

Thereís remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports itís nearer 80%. Thereís lots of studies on birth bias.

Thanks for the info David.

Any reasons why?

The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.

It's called relative age effect.

Explained pretty well here

https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/

In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.

It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0

There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.

Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates. 
#newbridgeornowhere

Milltown Row2

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2019, 09:46:17 AM »
I was born 2nd January, perfect for the system we used and I believe better development when having that Ďextra yearí back in the day.. but going on modern coaching and training done nowadays Iím sure they are developing at a similar rate, unfortunately there has to be a cut off date and be it a school year or January someone will benefit better than others.

For instance if Iím born in the summer and was Ďkeptí back a year I could be a full 11 months older than players in my year!
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

shark

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2019, 10:25:19 AM »
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldnít do it because of UEFA rules.

Thereís remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports itís nearer 80%. Thereís lots of studies on birth bias.

Thanks for the info David.

Any reasons why?

The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.

It's called relative age effect.

Explained pretty well here

https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/

In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.

It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0

There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.

Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.

The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.

Maiden1

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2019, 10:57:22 AM »
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldnít do it because of UEFA rules.

Thereís remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports itís nearer 80%. Thereís lots of studies on birth bias.

Thanks for the info David.

Any reasons why?

The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.

It's called relative age effect.

Explained pretty well here

https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/

In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.

It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0

There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.

Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.

The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.
Exams as well.  A lot of schools will factor in the age (in months) if 2 children have similar marks in transfer test.

https://www.today.com/parents/study-kids-born-late-summer-have-advantage-kindergarten-over-peers-t116485

My oldest son was due around 10th of January and was born a couple of weeks early.  1 of my first thoughts when he was born early was feck that's gonna cost a year at minor  :).
If you want something, you have to work for it. Now quiet they're about to announce the lottery no's

johnnycool

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2019, 11:51:46 AM »
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldnít do it because of UEFA rules.

Thereís remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports itís nearer 80%. Thereís lots of studies on birth bias.

Thanks for the info David.

Any reasons why?

The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.

It's called relative age effect.

Explained pretty well here

https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/

In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.

It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0

There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.

Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.

The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.
Exams as well.  A lot of schools will factor in the age (in months) if 2 children have similar marks in transfer test.

https://www.today.com/parents/study-kids-born-late-summer-have-advantage-kindergarten-over-peers-t116485

My oldest son was due around 10th of January and was born a couple of weeks early.  1 of my first thoughts when he was born early was feck that's gonna cost a year at minor  :).

Ha Ha,
        That's not the first time I've heard that, although he will be eligible a year earlier..........

BenDover

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2019, 12:57:27 PM »
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.

How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.

TheOptimist

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2019, 01:04:53 PM »
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.

How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.

That just puts the younger May/June kids at a disadvantage in their education and their football god love them!

johnnycool

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2019, 01:44:01 PM »
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.

How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.

so you'd need to run off a seperate competition to see who represents Armagh at Feile and various other intercounty club competitions?

DuffleKing

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2019, 09:08:50 PM »

Armagh's change is a shambles in every way

Wildweasel74

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2019, 10:16:07 PM »
31-12, of any year was the worst date. Literally a day to early that caused you to miss an entire year's worth of fball at under age level

Throw ball

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2019, 01:32:28 PM »

Armagh's change is a shambles in every way

As this is the first year of it being used I think you are being a bit premature

twohands!!!

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2019, 08:32:22 PM »
Have an nephew who has stopped playing football this year and can't help but think it's partially due to his bad birthday - he is an end of November birthday and this year was his bad year for U10. To add to this he is definitely a slower/late developer in terms of his height and weight - it's as clear as day when you see him with his class mates and friends. To give an idea of his size he has a female cousin who is 6 who is less than an inch smaller than him. At games and training he was just being physically outmatched by lads the same age as him, never mind the boys 23 months older than him amd you coulld see him just getting frustrated and annoyed as he's a fierce competitor (hates losing with a passion) He was/is very skillful when he got the ball and would run all day. He still is playing soccer (same age grades) and loving it, because physicality doesn't come into it to anywhere near the same extent as in GAA. I'm hopeful of a growth spurt at some stage down the road as pretty much all his adult relatives on both sides are around the 6 foot mark at least - his dad is around 6ft2 6ft3 and his older brother (still playing) is above average height for his height. It was his own decision to quit and no-one wanted to force him to go doing something he wasn't enjoying - his parents had a talk with him about quitting things and the importance of sticking at things and explained he was at a disadvantage because he was a late developer but didn't want to make a big deal of it.

For myself I do remember playing one U14 match and feeling like a bit of a bully marking a fella who was at least 2 if not 3 years younger than me (he was 3 school years below me in secondary school and I'm nearly sure he was playing up an age) that I beat out the door mainly because I was about 4/5 inches taller and and 2/3 stone heavier than him. Early February birthday and I had just gone through a growth spurt so it was a complete mismatch size-wise. Why one of the managers did make a switch I'll never know. It was fun at first but by the end it was just embarrassing and I felt bad for him. Still can vividly remember being confused in the dressing room after when one of the lads ws saying I'd a great game and trying to explain that I was just older/bigger than the lad I was marking. Overall I can't help but feel that the GAA could maybe be doing more at underage to sort out this issue, as I'm sure this is one of the main reasons a lot of lads quit at underage.

marty34

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Re: 'Bad Birthday' in GAA Underage
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2019, 10:12:30 PM »
Have an nephew who has stopped playing football this year and can't help but think it's partially due to his bad birthday - he is an end of November birthday and this year was his bad year for U10. To add to this he is definitely a slower/late developer in terms of his height and weight - it's as clear as day when you see him with his class mates and friends. To give an idea of his size he has a female cousin who is 6 who is less than an inch smaller than him. At games and training he was just being physically outmatched by lads the same age as him, never mind the boys 23 months older than him amd you coulld see him just getting frustrated and annoyed as he's a fierce competitor (hates losing with a passion) He was/is very skillful when he got the ball and would run all day. He still is playing soccer (same age grades) and loving it, because physicality doesn't come into it to anywhere near the same extent as in GAA. I'm hopeful of a growth spurt at some stage down the road as pretty much all his adult relatives on both sides are around the 6 foot mark at least - his dad is around 6ft2 6ft3 and his older brother (still playing) is above average height for his height. It was his own decision to quit and no-one wanted to force him to go doing something he wasn't enjoying - his parents had a talk with him about quitting things and the importance of sticking at things and explained he was at a disadvantage because he was a late developer but didn't want to make a big deal of it.

For myself I do remember playing one U14 match and feeling like a bit of a bully marking a fella who was at least 2 if not 3 years younger than me (he was 3 school years below me in secondary school and I'm nearly sure he was playing up an age) that I beat out the door mainly because I was about 4/5 inches taller and and 2/3 stone heavier than him. Early February birthday and I had just gone through a growth spurt so it was a complete mismatch size-wise. Why one of the managers did make a switch I'll never know. It was fun at first but by the end it was just embarrassing and I felt bad for him. Still can vividly remember being confused in the dressing room after when one of the lads ws saying I'd a great game and trying to explain that I was just older/bigger than the lad I was marking. Overall I can't help but feel that the GAA could maybe be doing more at underage to sort out this issue, as I'm sure this is one of the main reasons a lot of lads quit at underage.

Everybody develops physically at different ages as we know.

The reason I opened the op is to find out what other sports do.  At least if everyone was in the same year i.e. Jan 08 - Dec31st 08, then people would know that's where they stand so to speak.

I think it'd make more sense, even from an official point of view intead of checking what month, just check the year.