Author Topic: Elections North and South  (Read 32643 times)

currychip

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #330 on: May 23, 2019, 03:00:12 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Keyser soze

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #331 on: May 23, 2019, 03:12:32 PM »
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye itís shocking. But again itís just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Letís look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if youíre opposed to violence itís a no brainer...

Sure itís easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Andersonís political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?

So what is the difference in the bombs Naomi dropped and the ones Martina planted?

trailer

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #332 on: May 23, 2019, 03:54:19 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

Twitter is twitter and not reflective of general society. As someone who's canvassed and worked for SDLP can I certainly say we get our fair share vitriol from Republicans and Unionists.

I'm Irish and proud to be Irish. It's part of who I am and I don't see why it should be left at the door when talking about anything.

Franko

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #333 on: May 23, 2019, 04:38:05 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 04:40:38 PM by Franko »

general_lee

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #334 on: May 23, 2019, 06:04:56 PM »
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye itís shocking. But again itís just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Letís look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if youíre opposed to violence itís a no brainer...

Sure itís easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Andersonís political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?
Yes he got bashed quite publicly in the wake of becoming Lord Mayor by a so-called journalist/author promptly followed by a loyalist death threat.

I donít think the UK has any business in the Middle East full stop so Iíd prefer an MP that voted against all forms of military attacks abroad.

trailer

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #335 on: May 24, 2019, 12:55:21 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.





Franko

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #336 on: May 24, 2019, 04:45:06 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.

You see this is exactly where you go wrong.  I shouldn't have to point this out to you but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I've presented both the positive and negative case for both and attempted to present an objective view as I see it.

You (and your fellow one-trick ponies in the SDLP) only EVER present the negative regarding SF.  And when someone only ever does that, it means that objectivity has gone out the window and it's just dogma.

Edit.

I'm sure you'll not be distraught to learn this... but you didn't get a transfer from me in the end, primarily because of this nonsense and McCrossan's lying swipe at Naomi Long earlier in the week.  Claire Bailey was the beneficiary.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 04:52:17 PM by Franko »

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #337 on: May 25, 2019, 06:49:16 AM »
I see Rte are publishing some exit polls. Surely thatís illegal at this stage??

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #338 on: May 25, 2019, 06:56:03 AM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Raymond McCreesh Park. I always considered that a failure to stand up to SF but if you are telling me itís reflective of wider SDLP policy I will have to take your word for it and bear that in mind for the future

I did not say that nationalism or unionism were baggage per se. But I did use the word ďunrelatedĒ. Voting for the best nationalist candidate as opposed to the best candidate for a role that has relative impact on the nationalist/unionist debate probably is baggage though

Tubberman

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #339 on: May 25, 2019, 06:56:21 AM »
I see Rte are publishing some exit polls. Surely thatís illegal at this stage??

Why? Suee the voting is over so it can't affect the outcome.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #340 on: May 25, 2019, 07:00:08 AM »
I see Rte are publishing some exit polls. Surely thatís illegal at this stage??

Why? Suee the voting is over so it can't affect the outcome.

Still going on elsewhere.

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #341 on: May 25, 2019, 07:21:06 AM »
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye itís shocking. But again itís just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Letís look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if youíre opposed to violence itís a no brainer...

Sure itís easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Andersonís political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?

So what is the difference in the bombs Naomi dropped and the ones Martina planted?

Naomi dropping bombs is she?

I donít actually know what bombs Martina was involved in but  we all know and she accepts that for many years she was part of the GB bombing crew and that they and she personally was tooled up for serious action at the time of their arrest. We know they were headed for London and we know what their London targets were before - shopping streets. Lovely

Naomiís reasons for voting against air strikes in Syria and in favour of targeted strikes on the locations in Iraq from where IS weíre launching their own strikes on barricaded-in civilian populations are a matter of public record. They include the absence of short term alternatives and the other steps that would need to be taken to ensure the strikes would not need to be ongoing. They do not include the need for the strikes to be routed through a multinational alliance and comply with international law but that was implied in the the phrasing of the motion she was voting on
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 07:55:08 AM by smelmoth »

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #342 on: May 25, 2019, 07:29:39 AM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

Twitter is twitter and not reflective of general society. As someone who's canvassed and worked for SDLP can I certainly say we get our fair share vitriol from Republicans and Unionists.

I'm Irish and proud to be Irish. It's part of who I am and I don't see why it should be left at the door when talking about anything.

My issue is with people who need to involve their nationalism and unionism in EVERYTHING - hence my use of the word ďunrelated ď

We have parties who construct school buildings to be shared amongst catholics and Protestants. But the kids schools have different names, teachers, uniforms, admissions criteria, curricula- just a shared roof and IT suite.  Do those politicians need to leave their baggage at the door - yes

We have politians who demand the social housing is planned, built and allocated not on absolute need but on sectarian quota who preserve the sectarian mix of an area and dare I say constituency. Leave that baggage at the door.


smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #343 on: May 25, 2019, 07:40:56 AM »

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Donít make the mistake of confusing my view with that of Alliance. I have already said Iím not a member and have referenced a few candidates I would vote for over an Alliance candidate based upon ability

You only have to look at the posts of SF supporting posters here. Can we take their repeated positions ( as opposed to an expression that some have chosen to wilfully misinterpret) as SF positions? We can have great fun if thatís the case

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #344 on: May 25, 2019, 07:47:02 AM »
The condescension from some posters in this thread is making me lol.

Moving the moral high ground to Olympus ... and beyoooooooonnnnnddddd
Aye itís shocking. But again itís just shinner bashing no matter how people try to dress it up. Letís look at Naomi Long, did she not as an MP vote in favour of airstrikes in the Middle East? yet people are trying to decide between her and Eastwood. Realistically, if youíre opposed to violence itís a no brainer...

Sure itís easy to dismiss criticism of Shinner bashing. Is John Finucane being bashed? Maybe he has that bit more ability. Andersonís political track record does get challenged for a reason

As far as I recall Long voted against Syrian strikes but for Iraqi strikes and was able to link that differential to conditions on the ground and options available within the timescale. She made the point that strikes alone were insufficient. The 40 odd MPs to vote against what alternatives did they point to and how would they have addressed the mass slaughter being perpetuated by IS?
Yes he got bashed quite publicly in the wake of becoming Lord Mayor by a so-called journalist/author promptly followed by a loyalist death threat.

I donít think the UK has any business in the Middle East full stop so Iíd prefer an MP that voted against all forms of military attacks abroad.

What was the public bashing- I missed it.

Followed the death threat story. Utterly reprehensible. We need to do more to expose the thugs behind that sort of thing and establish what sort of support they have

Are you saying there is no circumstances anywhere in the world where international intervention is justified?  Talk me through the alternatives in Iraq at the time or would you wash your hands of the plight of those hemmed in by IS on all sides and being shelled from the sky