Author Topic: Elections North and South  (Read 37300 times)

smelmoth

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #345 on: May 25, 2019, 07:51:46 AM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.

You see this is exactly where you go wrong.  I shouldn't have to point this out to you but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I've presented both the positive and negative case for both and attempted to present an objective view as I see it.

You (and your fellow one-trick ponies in the SDLP) only EVER present the negative regarding SF.  And when someone only ever does that, it means that objectivity has gone out the window and it's just dogma.

Edit.

I'm sure you'll not be distraught to learn this... but you didn't get a transfer from me in the end, primarily because of this nonsense and McCrossan's lying swipe at Naomi Long earlier in the week.  Claire Bailey was the beneficiary.

Why do the ďnegativesĒ of SF have to be endured by the electorate at all?

Perhaps if you could objectively set out the negatives of SF we could send them off to Marylou and ask her to root out all those things. Then we would be left with the positives and all the better for it. Hooray

Franko

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #346 on: May 25, 2019, 08:25:10 AM »
Silly question which could be asked about any political party, in any country, ever.

Franko

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #347 on: May 25, 2019, 08:28:16 AM »

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Donít make the mistake of confusing my view with that of Alliance. I have already said Iím not a member and have referenced a few candidates I would vote for over an Alliance candidate based upon ability

You only have to look at the posts of SF supporting posters here. Can we take their repeated positions ( as opposed to an expression that some have chosen to wilfully misinterpret) as SF positions? We can have great fun if thatís the case

Nice bit of wriggling but you didnít put it across as your view, you said explicitly that this was the view of the Alliance Party.  So either it is the view of Alliance or you were spouting nonsense.

The Trap

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #348 on: May 25, 2019, 10:13:21 AM »
Only 47% turnout at a time when nationalists are talking about a border poll, unionists about protecting the union and the threats or opportunities presented by brexit depending on your view.
Do people not care?

trailer

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #349 on: May 25, 2019, 03:56:19 PM »
Quote from: smelmoth link=topic=29178.msg1897960#msg1897960 date=1558b529588
Given that an MEP will do zero to advance the case of Nationalism or Unionism does anyone want to make the case why there 1st preference will be the top performer in the role if elected?

SDLP are part of PES who have been vocal on a range of issues but importantly, migrant issues and workers rights. They also fully believe in the European project.
Others sit with Marxists and Communists. That's for them to explain.

All accepted and Colum could hold his own. Donít think he is in Longís league plus Allianceís group whilst smaller is the power broker in the current parliament under Verhofstadt (that could change) and the Uk representation of that group is likely to increase with the remain vote going to Lib Dems. We need our voice inside that group

You "Donít think he is in Longís league".  Wha?  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support that.  Both articulate their party position in engaging ways, with Long for me maybe being a bit preachy.

In debate I would consider Long superior. Whilst ultimately that is subjective I would consider in the round, her calmness, articulacy and ability to react intelligently to live events.
In instinct I would judge her more politically savvy. She is managing an upward trajectory. Colin isnít flying. At best he is falling with style. His failure to grasp Mike TVís initiative, the Fianna FŠil fudgy thing, the failure to grasp the electoral importance of Hanna and the lack of clear positions on some key areas can all be cited.
In resilience I would judge Long to be superior. The shinners are gunning (in the metaphorical sense) for Colum and they donít give him an easy ride. This is nothing compared to what Long personally and Alliance generally have to withstand from PUL intelligentsia

Anyway  I would be interested to hear what you might say to support your claim that Long is preachy?

As you say, there is an element of subjectiveness about comparing Long and Eastwood or most politiians.  I certainly don't consider her a better debater.  He has the abilities that you attribute to her.  I don't recall him being any less calm than her.  He's no less articulate and, for me, quicker with the witicisms.

Her party leader role is much easier than his.  He inherited a party in decline, then a political situation going into decline.  There is a bit of a mood of "one is as bad as the others" viz nationalists and unionists, hence Alliance get an easy ride for being agnostic about nationality.  I don't want the person who represents me to be agnostic.  I am a nationalist and I want someone to articulate that.  Not in a way that denigrates unionists, or seeks to raise tensions, or tells them their days are numbered.  For me Alliance is a bit of "whatever you are having yourself", which is an easy position to play.

On the preachy - here's an example.  Friday 11th May there was a debate on RU involving Eastwood, Long and Jim Allister.  At the offset there was a discussion between Eastwood and Allister about how much NI gets from the EU (Eastwood) and how much UK puts in (Allister).  They both emphasised their points.  First comment from Long was "here we go, Punch and Judy politics".  We know she means, "we are above this arguing from the great unwashed like you".  For then on, her and Allister had a ding dong.  I don't want my political reps to not challenge Allister, the opposite in fact.  That is what Eastwood did, but not in an ignorant or uncouth way, but stridently.  I was a bit pissed off at her sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, which seems to be her MO.

I agree with a lot of this. Canít comment on the RU debate that I didnít hear. I completely disagree with 2 points though.

Alliance do not get an easy ride. The Twitter responses to Long can be dismissed as keyboard warrior stuff but they give an insight into the vitriol Alliance can and do face. That on occasion is manifested physically. Itís a very Belfast thing but Allianceís presence has been very Belfast focused but is starting to change

Secondly I cannot agree that as a nationalist that you need to represented by a nationalist on roads, education, tax, economics, health etc etc etc. Alliance are not a case of ďwhatever you are heaving yourselfĒ and more a case of ďcan you leave your baggage at the door and deal with the unrelated issue on its merits ď. This is where every party should be.

I will transfer to Colum as a determined proEU candidate. I will give him more respect when his party takes on issues like standing up to the shinners on local councils in the way Alliance did to loyalist in Belfast and beyond

All political parties get the vitriol on social media, SDLP no less than Alliance.  Alliance do get an easier ride from media.

Sure, I don't need to be represented by a nationalist on roads, education etc, and they don't any more than Alliance.  I find all parties in my area to be much the same on these matters, not great mostly - Alliance no better or worse than the others, hence I transfer widely, esp in local government. 

The idea that my Irishness/nationalism is "baggage" to be left at the door.  I certainly don't see it as baggage, whatever that means, or as something to be dismissed.  Its important to me, and as far as I can see, to a lot of other people.  Its not everything that I think about in a political rep, nor is it nothing.  I want someone who can advocate for me on roads, health, education and irish nationalism.  There is nothing wrong with that, its not a case of either/or as you seem to suggest.

I am not sure where the idea that the SDLP don't stand up to SF on councils comes from but it certainly does not reflect reality.  I know the political scene in Derry, over a few decades.  Your version of the SDLP/SF relationship is definitely not borne out by the experiences here.

Well put.  Strongly considering voting for Naomi as I think she's got lots of ability but if the view of the Alliance party is that Nationalist feelings are 'baggage' to be 'left at the door' then I'd have to think again about that.  In saying that, I don't rate the SDLP at all, as their MO is simply to attack SF (trailer displays this nonsense perfectly on here - is he Daniel McCrossan??).  They are pro-EU though so for that reason would be worth a transfer.  Would consider SF but Anderson IMO is a woeful candidate.  I just won't be voting unionist.  So all in all, who knows.

Maybe the problem is you??... you say all the SDLP do is attack SF, yet in your post you've criticised SF, the SDLP and Alliance.

You see this is exactly where you go wrong.  I shouldn't have to point this out to you but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I've presented both the positive and negative case for both and attempted to present an objective view as I see it.

You (and your fellow one-trick ponies in the SDLP) only EVER present the negative regarding SF.  And when someone only ever does that, it means that objectivity has gone out the window and it's just dogma.

Edit.

I'm sure you'll not be distraught to learn this... but you didn't get a transfer from me in the end, primarily because of this nonsense and McCrossan's lying swipe at Naomi Long earlier in the week.  Claire Bailey was the beneficiary.


It's your vote. You use it as you see fit. BTW I wan't running so it was impossible to transfer to me.


Owen Brannigan

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #350 on: May 25, 2019, 03:57:38 PM »
From the Electoral Office.

European Parliamentary Election - Thursday 23 May 2019

Turnout figures

Electoral Region   
Eligible Electorate: 1,278,951   
Votes Polled: 577,275
Turnout (%): 45.14

Quota = (577,275 / (3 +1)) + 1 = 144320

Low turnout aided by issues in getting postal and proxy votes because the deadline for application was too early for many people.

It will be interesting to see which parts of the electorate stayed at home.

Were UUP voters left with little motivation by Danny Kennedy's lack lustre approach?

Have the non-aligned parties moved on while others have not managed to get their vote out?

Have republicans and nationalists lost ground in their efforts to provide evidence that there is a demand for a border poll?




trailer

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #351 on: May 25, 2019, 03:59:09 PM »
Looks like a poor enough election in the South for SF if the exit polls are accurate.

trailer

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #352 on: May 25, 2019, 04:00:50 PM »
From the Electoral Office.

European Parliamentary Election - Thursday 23 May 2019

Turnout figures

Electoral Region   
Eligible Electorate: 1,278,951   
Votes Polled: 577,275
Turnout (%): 45.14

Quota = (577,275 / (3 +1)) + 1 = 144320

Low turnout aided by issues in getting postal and proxy votes because the deadline for application was too early for many people.

It will be interesting to see which parts of the electorate stayed at home.

Were UUP voters left with little motivation by Danny Kennedy's lack lustre approach?

Have the non-aligned parties moved on while others have not managed to get their vote out?

Have republicans and nationalists lost ground in their efforts to provide evidence that there is a demand for a border poll?

Be interesting to see which parties / constituencies are affected by this.

mrdeeds

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #353 on: May 25, 2019, 05:22:01 PM »
Looks like a poor enough election in the South for SF if the exit polls are accurate.

Might have no councillors in Cavan.

Tony Baloney

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #354 on: May 25, 2019, 06:00:20 PM »
From the Electoral Office.

European Parliamentary Election - Thursday 23 May 2019

Turnout figures

Electoral Region   
Eligible Electorate: 1,278,951   
Votes Polled: 577,275
Turnout (%): 45.14

Quota = (577,275 / (3 +1)) + 1 = 144320

Low turnout aided by issues in getting postal and proxy votes because the deadline for application was too early for many people.

It will be interesting to see which parts of the electorate stayed at home.

Were UUP voters left with little motivation by Danny Kennedy's lack lustre approach?

Have the non-aligned parties moved on while others have not managed to get their vote out?

Have republicans and nationalists lost ground in their efforts to provide evidence that there is a demand for a border poll?

Be interesting to see which parties / constituencies are affected by this.
:-X I could take a stab at it

Rossfan

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #355 on: May 26, 2019, 03:35:48 AM »
Looks like a poor enough election in the South for SF if the exit polls are accurate.
It was a shit election for SF a lot of it due to a bad leader.
Pearse Doherty was the choice they should have made.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

andoireabu

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #356 on: May 26, 2019, 09:19:04 AM »
Question about transfers. How do the extra votes get transferred when someone hits the quota? I know they go to the person with the no. 2 on the paper but is it down to pot luck which votes are the 'extra' votes? Say i voted no. 1 for candidate A and no. 2 for candidate B and the person after me votes no.1 for A and no. 2 for C. If my vote is the one that gets A to the quota then the second voter has their vote transferred to C. However if the 2nd voters vote is the one that makes the quota then my vote gets transferred to B. Or am I away off the mark completely?
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Shamrock Shore

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #357 on: May 26, 2019, 09:41:10 AM »
Sinn Fein are on the way down and there is no floor visible.

Mary Lou and yer wan up North are very weak electorally.

Greens will enjoy their bounce - and while it is only local councils - they will still find that enthusiasm and re-usable coffee cups will only get them so far around the council chamber. 


RedHand88

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #358 on: May 26, 2019, 09:43:04 AM »
Question about transfers. How do the extra votes get transferred when someone hits the quota? I know they go to the person with the no. 2 on the paper but is it down to pot luck which votes are the 'extra' votes? Say i voted no. 1 for candidate A and no. 2 for candidate B and the person after me votes no.1 for A and no. 2 for C. If my vote is the one that gets A to the quota then the second voter has their vote transferred to C. However if the 2nd voters vote is the one that makes the quota then my vote gets transferred to B. Or am I away off the mark completely?

In some systems it's like that yes.
But here (north anyway, and I'm nearly sure south too), they transfer down the votes as a proportion. The breakdown of 2s will be applied to the surplus and distributed. So say for example the quota is 8000 and I get 10000 first preferences. 5000 of my first preferences (half) had candidate B as a 2. In this case 1000 votes will transfer down as it's half the surplus if that makes sense.
If 2500 of my votes had candidate C as a 2, then 500 votes would be transferred.

armaghniac

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Re: Elections North and South
« Reply #359 on: May 26, 2019, 09:45:05 AM »
In the North they distribute the votes as a proportion, in the South they take the required number from different boxes.
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