Author Topic: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup  (Read 39011 times)

Don Draper

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #240 on: June 17, 2019, 11:12:22 AM »
I disagree. Portlaoise are an example at one end of the scale and let's take Courtwood at the other end. Can Courtwood seriously expect to be as competitive forever as they are now? I hope they do by the way. And for the opposite reasons, Portlaoise will always be strong. Getting a good batch in a small club or county is good luck and getting a bad crop is bad luck. Coaching only enhances what is already there
No, but Courtwood can continue to do things the right way, and develop what they have. And its not a good analogy, as Courtwood are a small area who may or may not get 15 good footballers through. Laois and Offaly are working off populations of thousands, good coaching and structures will always get you 15. Coaching will enhance what is already here in Laois because we have a larger population than Courtwood. Your example is poor.

Keyser Söze

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #241 on: June 17, 2019, 11:16:23 AM »
No luck involved as such.
As Don said there is constant hard work and organisation needed. Constant reviewing, improving and evolving too. And after all that, given our numbers, all we can hope for is to be consistently competitive MOST YEARS at underage and to bring through 2-3 players from each age grade.
The problems for Offaly and Laois are when even a handful of the 2/3 good enough from each grade decide not to commit. It kills us both.
4/5 players that are good enough between the ages of 20 & 28 deciding not to commit could realistically be irreplaceable for us.

It is hard to see a way out of this cycle. 

A huge review is needed of the GAA's priorities in terms of spending money. In general, the GAA has an admirable and open model. One the of the main problems with funding GDAs, club coaches etc is that matching funding is generally required. What Laois, Offaly, Carlow etc can afford and what Dublin can afford are on different planets.
International Rules, Fenway Classics, Wild Geese, maybe even All Star Trips......what is the point?
What is to gain from spreading our wings like this?

Anyways, while I still have a problem with Eddie Brennan sitting on the Sunday Game panel, he has organised and energised this team. I really think this our level anyways (best of the rest), but it doesn't just happen when management are lazy/substandard (as was proved over last year or two).

We should be rightly confident heading to Croke Park.
We want to remain "amateur". Therefore it is not sustainable to have teams on different continents competing with each other.
Those abroad are glad to be involved in GAA there, it's admirable, but the odd jolly for the chosen few does f**k all for them, nor should it be a priority.
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Keyser Söze

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #242 on: June 17, 2019, 11:19:27 AM »
I disagree. Portlaoise are an example at one end of the scale and let's take Courtwood at the other end. Can Courtwood seriously expect to be as competitive forever as they are now? I hope they do by the way. And for the opposite reasons, Portlaoise will always be strong. Getting a good batch in a small club or county is good luck and getting a bad crop is bad luck. Coaching only enhances what is already there
No, but Courtwood can continue to do things the right way, and develop what they have. And its not a good analogy, as Courtwood are a small area who may or may not get 15 good footballers through. Laois and Offaly are working off populations of thousands, good coaching and structures will always get you 15. Coaching will enhance what is already here in Laois because we have a larger population than Courtwood. Your example is poor.

Courtwood is to Laois GAA, what Laois, Offaly, Carlow etc are to National GAA. There is nothing wrong with the example.
Courtwood will be able to put out 15 as long as they want to. At times, fellas who are not good enough to play at the level they are at will be given a jersey. The same happens with Laois. It's not the players/managers/clubs fault.
But it doesn't/won't happen in Portlaoise (football), or in the counties with larger playing numbers.
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High Fielder

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #243 on: June 17, 2019, 11:23:10 AM »
Thank you. You made the point better than I could. Good debate lads but I get nervous on the hurling forum so that's enough from me

Don Draper

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #244 on: June 17, 2019, 11:23:17 AM »
I disagree. Portlaoise are an example at one end of the scale and let's take Courtwood at the other end. Can Courtwood seriously expect to be as competitive forever as they are now? I hope they do by the way. And for the opposite reasons, Portlaoise will always be strong. Getting a good batch in a small club or county is good luck and getting a bad crop is bad luck. Coaching only enhances what is already there
No, but Courtwood can continue to do things the right way, and develop what they have. And its not a good analogy, as Courtwood are a small area who may or may not get 15 good footballers through. Laois and Offaly are working off populations of thousands, good coaching and structures will always get you 15. Coaching will enhance what is already here in Laois because we have a larger population than Courtwood. Your example is poor.

Courtwood is to Laois GAA, what Laois, Offaly, Carlow etc are to National GAA. There is nothing wrong with the example.
Courtwood will be able to put out 15 as long as they want to. At times, fellas who are not good enough to play at the level they are at will be given a jersey. The same happens with Laois. It's not the players/managers/clubs fault.
But it doesn't/won't happen in Portlaoise (football), or in the counties with larger playing numbers.
I disagree. Any small club will tell you there's times when you will struggle to put out 15. That wont happen at intercounty level. It shouldn't happen at intercounty level IF your structures are correct. Have good structures, have good systems, have good management, and you wont give intercounty jerseys to players not up to the level.

Don Draper

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #245 on: June 17, 2019, 11:25:39 AM »
I was somewhat disappointed to see Eddie there last night, but such is life. Hard to see what is gained from it from a Laois pov, but thats not why he's there.

Anyway, two days to go til our first day out in Croker in a long time. And the chance of a crack off Dublin in a preliminary quarter final. Thats gotta be looked forward to.

High Fielder

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #246 on: June 17, 2019, 11:32:10 AM »
On your last point Don, I think we have to give jerseys to lads who are not up to county standard. It depends what standard we're talking about. Are you an inter county footballer or hurler just because you're on a panel? I don't believe you are. I think we only have 3 or 4 players who are proper inter county players

Don Draper

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #247 on: June 17, 2019, 11:34:45 AM »
I think we only have 3 or 4 players who are proper inter county players
Holy f**k.

I'm going to leave you off on that note.

Keyser Söze

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #248 on: June 17, 2019, 11:36:12 AM »
I disagree. Any small club will tell you there's times when you will struggle to put out 15. That wont happen at intercounty level. It shouldn't happen at intercounty level IF your structures are correct. Have good structures, have good systems, have good management, and you wont give intercounty jerseys to players not up to the level.

Correct, you won't struggle to put out 15 players at intercounty level.
You will struggle to put out 15 intercounty players at intercounty level.
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Don Draper

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #249 on: June 17, 2019, 11:45:55 AM »
I disagree. Any small club will tell you there's times when you will struggle to put out 15. That wont happen at intercounty level. It shouldn't happen at intercounty level IF your structures are correct. Have good structures, have good systems, have good management, and you wont give intercounty jerseys to players not up to the level.

Correct, you won't struggle to put out 15 players at intercounty level.
You will struggle to put out 15 intercounty players at intercounty level.
But you see you shouldn't, not if they're developed properly within the right structures. Some lads think we're going to get 15 DJ's. Other people would lambaste a player like Michael Dara McAuley and call him well short of intercounty footballer standard. Its simply not that easy. Teams are made up of different strengths. If you have the structures, you'll bring forth the players. You may not contest All Ireland's, but you can be competitive. Which is where this all began, with a poster claiming Offaly are where they are because their luck ran out.

Joeythelips

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #250 on: June 17, 2019, 11:47:35 AM »
I strongly disagree with this, one of the main complaints this year is 'How are Carlow meant to develop when they only get one year against the big boys" They had the structure you suggest in place in the league for years and it only stopped counties such as Carlow developing as they are playing at one level and all of a sudden have to compete at an entirely different level, they would never make the next step.

I remember for several seasons this went on where Laois/Offaly/ Antrim would avoid going down the division of Carlow, Meath, Kerry etc as they had a playoff safety net. So these team although finished bottom were playing the likes of Dublin, Galway, Clare etc and now had to play a team that beat Kerry in a final.

I actually think the hurling modal is perfect for Football also, the only issue is the provincials which are basically redundant, they should be scrapped in place of a fairer seeded system. So in hurling instead of Leinster it should be 2 seeded groups. Seedings would be based on last years championship and this years league. Bottom 2 from each group playoff for relegation to JMD cup unlike now where Munster teams are safe.

Also people slate the JMD cup need to realise its not that awful a standard as Offaly found out. Just one year ago Offaly beat Dublin comfortably in Croke Park in the league. The GAA needs to invest in these counties, Carlow have a team worth following so now invest in coaching in the county while the iron is hot.

I think the JMD Cup does a number of things, it gives teams some serious hurling rather than going in cold against a team like Galway/Limerick etc. This gives them a taste of the standard so they have all winter to prepare for next season where they will have 4 high level championship games.

I would imagine Meath will win the Christy Ring this year and replace Offaly in the Joe McDonagh, but I wouldn't put my house on it. You would expect Offaly would have enough to come straight back up, but similarly to the Leinster championship/Joe McDonagh there is likely to be a large amount of yo-yoing between the two for certain counties - ourselves included. Whoever wins the Joe McDonagh final will more than likely face the same fate as Carlow did this year. Dublin defeating Galway yesterday probably signals the end of hopes that there was at least one team you might fancy your chances against on any given day. As a Laois supporter, the Joe McDonagh has been very enjoyable this summer but that leap into the top ten is still a big one. The re-structuring of the league format has only made this worse.

Agree.

To eliminate this upcoming yo-yo phenomenon between the Joe McDonagh and Leinster competitions, all the GAA has to do is hold a match between the team up for promotion and the team facing relegation. Winner goes up, loser goes down. The solution seems so simple, unless I’m completely missing something.
... If you are not good enough yet to beat the worst team at the next level, then you are probably better off in the Joe McD. Same goes for Christy Ring...
Exactly!

High Fielder

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #251 on: June 17, 2019, 11:57:54 AM »
Leave me off all you want but we were stuffed last day out against a team who are no great shakes. It's very obvious that we have serious deficiencies

Keyser Söze

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #252 on: June 17, 2019, 01:15:33 PM »
Agreed Joey,
No problem with some system that allows a team two years minimum (but don't see how it would work without the competition swelling to huge numbers).
The idea of there being a safety net is one thing.
The idea that the team who won the division below has to win the right to get up is plain wrong. It's quite self serving actually at this moment in time too. Suits Laois right now. If we swapped Laois & Carlow's positions at this moment I don't think too many would be calling for this safety net.
The most effective way to halt development/improvement in any of the tier two counties would be to see them win the Joe McDonagh Cup, lose the play off to go up and face back into Joe McDonagh the following year. What would they have won it for?
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Mossy Bruce

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #253 on: June 17, 2019, 05:30:51 PM »
Agreed Joey,
No problem with some system that allows a team two years minimum (but don't see how it would work without the competition swelling to huge numbers).
The idea of there being a safety net is one thing.
The idea that the team who won the division below has to win the right to get up is plain wrong. It's quite self serving actually at this moment in time too. Suits Laois right now. If we swapped Laois & Carlow's positions at this moment I don't think too many would be calling for this safety net.
The most effective way to halt development/improvement in any of the tier two counties would be to see them win the Joe McDonagh Cup, lose the play off to go up and face back into Joe McDonagh the following year. What would they have won it for?
First, I think a system of having a match to determine who will be relegated and who will be promoted should be in place, right now, for Carlow (and I am no fan of Carlow). I’d love to see Laois or Westmeath battle Carlow to see who’s truly Leinster Championship material. And I would hardly call this system a “safety net.” The downward-heading Leinster team has to prove they are still Championship material.

However, in reading the postings in favor of the current system (or slight variations of) and looking at this from a different perspective, I now see that each year it is guaranteed that a team with battle experience in Leinster will be dropping down to the Joe McDonagh Cup and bringing that strength with them. All the second-tier teams will get exposure to this first-tier intensity and it can only make those teams stronger.

(Changed my mind.)
 :)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 06:49:20 PM by Mossy Bruce »
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steven seagal

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Re: 2019 Joe McDonagh Cup
« Reply #254 on: June 17, 2019, 09:08:06 PM »
The promotion relegation playoff is already in place Munster. If Kerry were to win the Joe McDonagh, they would then have to beat the fifth placed team in Munster to get promoted. This rule does not apply to any other team in the McDonagh Cup, which is shockingly biased against Kerry.

The reason things are as they currently are is because they needed two groups of five. Munster already had five good teams all roughly around the same level, but none of them wanted to be relegated, so they had one set of rules for them. Leinster only has four decent teams, so they get supplemented with a rotating fifth team. The McDonagh Cup winners will be expected to get relegated every year, and the GAA will be happy for this to continue ad infinitum because the hurling championship is churning out top class games at the moment and that means its easier to attract sponsors and charge more for tv rights etc.

The only thing that will prompt a change in this is if one of Dublin, Galway, Wexford or Kilkenny somehow end up in 5th place in Leinster.