Author Topic: Shot Clock  (Read 1423 times)

Sionnach

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2019, 09:10:34 AM »
How about this?
Shot clock of 1 minute.
At least 3 players have to be in the opposition 45 at all times.
5 hand passes before you have to kick.

Is that you Barry Hearn?

The 3 men in the 45 thing is impossible to police. Clock might be worth a try though.

No back pass to the keeper I’d recommend. Won’t solve all ills, but it’ll help.

Enforcing 3 or 4 men in the 45 becomes trivially easy to police by simply giving 3-4 designated attackers / defenders on each team a different jersey, like the goalkeeper.   There are a few small annoyances the rule would cause e.g. a player having to stop chasing the ball because it has gone back behind the 45, but frankly those would be a very small price to pay for ending the blanket defence in a single stroke.

I think you just like disagreeing with Armagh men

Nothing like over-complicating things! If teams had less players, you wouldn’t need to keep 3/4 players in the opposing half. That’s the simplest solution and less strife for officials. It’s no wonder the refs get so much wrong.

It's a very simple change, not sure what's so complicated about designating 3-4 attackers and giving them different jerseys like the  'keeper. With the different jerseys, there's no reason why referees would have any difficulty at all enforcing that rule, and I don't see any major disadvantages to it.  Packed defences are the problem, so why not simply ban them?

 I do think 13-a-side is worth discussing though as a matter of fact.

Taylor

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2019, 09:40:16 AM »
Having to keep a number of players in the oppositions half isnt a runner IMHO. How daft would it look for a half back to hare up the field to join an attack but the half forward cant go with him because he has to stay in the opposition half. Even worse what if 2 or three defenders do this?

Fionn's concept is excellent and would work at intercounty level however at club level it could cause issues given it is at the referees discretion. As it is a grey area no doubt some of our whistle blowers would be on their usual power trip.

BennyCake

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2019, 10:14:51 AM »
So what’s the punishment if the third player steps over the 50 yard line?

What’s to stop a player falling down ‘injured’ just outside the 50 to prevent play resuming? It’ll be a great way of stopping the momentum. More effective than a normal feigning of injury, as presumably the play cannot start until 3 players are inside the opposing 50. Plus, you can’t book or send off that ‘injured’ player.

It’d be a weird sight if a winning team is down to say 12 players, last minute of an AI. The losing team can put 15 into the other half for one last hurrah, while the defending/leading team can only have 9. And imagine the ball being rifled to the net, while 3 of your players are way up the field standing all alone, scratching their arses, and watching an AI title slip away.

Nah, just doesn’t work for me.

trailer

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2019, 10:36:36 AM »
The answer to Gaelic football's problems is going to come from Gaelic football, not from implementing some other sport's rule in a bastardised GAA version.

I've tried to point out even just simple problems with the Shot Clock but those who try an advocate it are just blind to its limitations. They don't seem to understand Gaelic football. And they fact they keep harping on about shows a really dangerous lack of intelligence. Imagine these people in a position of power. Scary.

Redhand Santa

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2019, 10:39:36 AM »
If you were restricting the players in each half the rule would have to be that each team has to keep 3/4 players in each half of the field at any one time. You couldn't have it that one team could attack with 15 players and the other team only allowed to defend with 12 players. Some rule that prevents teams from dragging 13/14 bodies back is the only way you are going to stop the blanket defence.

I also think 13 a side is needed to free up space and create a better spectacle.

BennyCake

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2019, 10:47:51 AM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

HiMucker

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
I think less players would work and I always enjoyed 13 aside games. However I feel its too big a shift away from the 15 aside game that we have. It also doesn't sit well with me that we would be basically reducing the participation of our game. I can see the merits in it, especially for smaller clubs that are already struggling for numbers. I'm just not convinced it is the best solution to solve the issues that are being discussed.
The shot clock for me is something that would be nearly impossible to implement, especially at club level. I don't think it would work either. Numerous posters have stated this already, but enforcement of the steps rule would go a long way to addressing some of these issues. But it would need to be in conjunction with an acceptance of a cleaner tackle. I think the recent more lax approach to the steps rule is the acceptance of half fouls and half pulls in the game. We all know when playing you can pull and haul the man a bit but not too much. If you strictly enforce the steps rule, you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker in these scenarios. It was standard practice at underage, that your coach would be telling you count the solos and then tackle the ball to dispossess the opponent. I have never ever heard that at senior level. Its all about just getting the man stopped. Its a bit of chicken and egg. I'm not sure what came first but for me these 2 things are feeding each other, and if they were penalized regularly it would lead to a better came and a better spectacle with an increase in importance in the skills of both attacking/soloing and tackling.

Main Street

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2019, 12:46:20 PM »

Btw for the usual grunters I never said I was in favour but I have obviously have a more open mind the myopic Dublin supporters....must be all the fake All-Irelands that make them so angry...they know...
Yeah, it's just Dublin supporters against this ridiculous idea...

Although I see your distancing yourself from it now! Maybe, you've decided to think it through.

Grunter!! Getting a tad grumpy in oul age Dinny

 Ridiculous idea! hardly considering it's been doing the rounds for years. Now giving Dublin millions and not splitting them up, doesn't get more ridiculous than that in fairness, oh wait letting Dublin use Croke for league matches since 2011.......The GAA is full of ridiculous ideas but one to actually improve the game as a spectacle certainly isn't...
it's a hard sell though,
an idea to improve the game as a spectacle is to make it more basketball like?

TheClubman

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2019, 02:27:09 PM »
As always when discussions turn to rules I'm very much in the camp of implementing the current rules properly before we go for more radical ideas. The steps rule and handpass rule are abused 100's of times in every game giving a massive advantage to the player in possession. Enforcing these two rules alone would make it much more difficult to retain possession which I think most would agree is the root of the problems with gaelic football.

On the other ideas:

Shot clock - I wouldn't be in favour of this....Brokencrossbar outlined the negatives earlier and I'd concur with most of that.

Restriction of players within the 45 - this could be a good idea. Lineman's main objective should be policing this (one linesman to be on each 45)....not worrying about who the ball hit last on the way out. 95% of line balls are obvious anyway. Breach of this - free from the top of the D AND possibly retain possession after the shot is taken.

13 a side - I think this is a case of a sledgehammer when a scalpel is needed. I'd only entertain it as a last resort.

Restriction of consecutive handpasses - handpassing isn't always a bad thing....many examples of fantastic goals scored after moves involving multiple handpasses. Again a blunt instrument to fix a nuanced problem so I'd be against unless all else fails.

Dublin - it's unfortunate that everyone is obsessed by Dublin and whether rule chages will suit them or curb them and using that as reason to support or not. My feeling is no matter what rule changes you make, Dublin will probably adapt quicker than the rest. I also think some posts that criticised Dublin's style of play are way off the mark. Dublin adjust to who they are playing and are brilliant at it. If you play a blanket defence....they'll pick it apart and then keep possession (some of what Sherlock has brought to their forward play from basketball is really interesting....McManamon along the end line springs to mind). If you go toe to toe with you they'll relish that challenge also. They're not a great team because of their tactics - they're a great team because they can adapt to any tactics. Obviously laden down with talent and a huge support structure but seriously well coached.

Sionnach

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2019, 06:49:29 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45.  They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

Over the Bar

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2019, 07:17:05 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45. 
Quote
They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.
  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

So the Dubs can have their defenders in red, mf in white and forwards in blue?  All the jackeen supporters can will be delighted!

delgany

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2019, 07:21:05 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45. 
Quote
They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.
  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

So the Dubs can have their defenders in red, mf in white and forwards in blue?  All the jackeen supporters can will be delighted!

O' Neills can hardly cope with getting Jersey orders right when there all the  same ...God help us having to order different colours in one kit....club identity issue... really a load of bollocks to even suggest it

Sionnach

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2019, 10:24:57 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45. 
Quote
They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.
  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

So the Dubs can have their defenders in red, mf in white and forwards in blue?  All the jackeen supporters can will be delighted!

O' Neills can hardly cope with getting Jersey orders right when there all the  same ...God help us having to order different colours in one kit....club identity issue... really a load of bollocks to even suggest it

Ah come on now it's hardly some sort of titanic organisational feat.  You only need one extra kind of jersey in addition to the  'keeper's jersey - the one for use by both your designated attackers and defenders (their zones are separated from each other by the area between the 45s, so they don't need different jerseys from each other, it's going to be fairly obvious if a designated forward comes all the way back to the defensive zone and gets involved). 

Anyway jersey colours are only one option for marking out the 3-4 designated attackers and 3-4 designated defenders on each team.  Easy enough to think of a few ways you could do it, for example just give them letters instead of numbers on their jerseys.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 10:44:30 PM by Sionnach »

BennyCake

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2019, 11:06:04 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45.  They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

Ok so, Michael Murphy is FF, and during the second half Declan Bonner moves him to midfield, and puts Ryan McHugh in the FF line. Does that mean they have to swap jersies? Or are they allowed to move at all if theyre wearing one of these designated jersies?

Can you imagine Michael ‘Incredible Hulk’ Murphy trying to play in McHugh’s wee jersey? He wouldn’t be fit to move! And there’s McHugh up front tripping over the sleeves of Murphy’s shirt!

delgany

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2019, 11:14:36 PM »
The only way you’d ensure 3 players in each half is to employ 2 more officials on each 50, who job it is just to watch that only.

Less players is the answer. Officials are overwhelmed with rules as it is.

Repeating myself now, but you have 3-4 designated attackers and the same number of designated defenders out of the 15 players on the team (designated defenders are needed otherwise the backs could run off up the field with their markers unable to follow).   Designated attackers can't interfere with play behind the 45, designated defenders can't interfere with play in front of the 45. 
Quote
They wear a different jersey, as goalkeepers do, to make it easy to distinguish them from their teammates.
  So there is no reason why referees would have trouble with telling them from the other players any more than they have trouble telling goalkeepers from outfield players.  It's a simple and easily enforceable rule that immediately ends the problem of 15-man packed defences.

So the Dubs can have their defenders in red, mf in white and forwards in blue?  All the jackeen supporters can will be delighted!

O' Neills can hardly cope with getting Jersey orders right when there all the  same ...God help us having to order different colours in one kit....club identity issue... really a load of bollocks to even suggest it

Ah come on now it's hardly some sort of titanic organisational feat.  You only need one extra kind of jersey in addition to the  'keeper's jersey - the one for use by both your designated attackers and defenders (their zones are separated from each other by the area between the 45s, so they don't need different jerseys from each other, it's going to be fairly obvious if a designated forward comes all the way back to the defensive zone and gets involved). 

Anyway jersey colours are only one option for marking out the 3-4 designated attackers and 3-4 designated defenders on each team.  Easy enough to think of a few ways you could do it, for example just give them letters instead of numbers on their jerseys.

Jeeez   wept