Author Topic: Shot Clock  (Read 1548 times)

Dinny Breen

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 02:58:27 PM »

Btw for the usual grunters I never said I was in favour but I have obviously have a more open mind the myopic Dublin supporters....must be all the fake All-Irelands that make them so angry...they know...
Yeah, it's just Dublin supporters against this ridiculous idea...

Although I see your distancing yourself from it now! Maybe, you've decided to think it through.

Grunter!! Getting a tad grumpy in oul age Dinny

 Ridiculous idea! hardly considering it's been doing the rounds for years. Now giving Dublin millions and not splitting them up, doesn't get more ridiculous than that in fairness, oh wait letting Dublin use Croke for league matches since 2011.......The GAA is full of ridiculous ideas but one to actually improve the game as a spectacle certainly isn't...
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priceyreilly

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 02:59:57 PM »
If teams were to go ultra defensive, then how would they score? The shot clock will run out on them. Having said that, don't think it's the best idea. Something has to be done about the keep ball though. A number of teams are adopting it now.

brokencrossbar1

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 03:06:59 PM »
Dinny I get the idea of bringing change in to make it better but I think that a shot clock isn't the way for it.  As someone who has played basketball and still do as best as I can it is easier to implement in it as it is a transition sport over short distances and is more 'play' orientated.  Smaller numbers and more control make it easier to manage and implement.  I think the idea of reducing numbers might work and I have always been an advocate of 'team fouls' using the basketball analogy.  If a team can be punished for cumulative fouls then there is a huge incentive for teams to actually go at each other and attack....8-10 fouls a half....21 yard free....

TheGreatest

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2019, 04:06:51 PM »

Btw for the usual grunters I never said I was in favour but I have obviously have a more open mind the myopic Dublin supporters....must be all the fake All-Irelands that make them so angry...they know...
Yeah, it's just Dublin supporters against this ridiculous idea...

Although I see your distancing yourself from it now! Maybe, you've decided to think it through.

Grunter!! Getting a tad grumpy in oul age Dinny

 Ridiculous idea! hardly considering it's been doing the rounds for years. Now giving Dublin millions and not splitting them up, doesn't get more ridiculous than that in fairness, oh wait letting Dublin use Croke for league matches since 2011.......The GAA is full of ridiculous ideas but one to actually improve the game as a spectacle certainly isn't...

Ewan....

priceyreilly

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2019, 04:54:56 PM »
How about this?
Shot clock of 1 minute.
At least 3 players have to be in the opposition 45 at all times.
5 hand passes before you have to kick.

BennyCake

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2019, 05:01:01 PM »
How about this?
Shot clock of 1 minute.
At least 3 players have to be in the opposition 45 at all times.
5 hand passes before you have to kick.

Is that you Barry Hearn?

The 3 men in the 45 thing is impossible to police. Clock might be worth a try though.

No back pass to the keeper I’d recommend. Won’t solve all ills, but it’ll help.

Rossfan

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 05:10:24 PM »
Firstly let's implement the 4 step rule in toto. No letting ball carriers take 10 or 12 steps just because they're being tackled.
Also penalise all fouling by ball carriers.
And there HAS to be restrictions on consecutive throwpasses.
Also black card/sinbin for the cynical tactical fouls by forwards to stop a team breaking fast from defence.
The same for not handing over the ball when it's a free against you or standing in the way to prevent a quick free.
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mrdeeds

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2019, 05:20:57 PM »
I always thought the simplest thing to do is enforce the steps rule so turnover is easier so ball has to be moved quicker and no more than one player tackling a player eliminating the point of the blanket.

6th sam

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2019, 05:33:59 PM »
Bc1 , like the idea of cumulative fouls being penalised. Would really open things up and would be easily policed by referees and also by managers and team mates who will no longer tolerate conceding cheap fouls.

Any changes have to be manageable for single referees at all levels

tippabu

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2019, 07:18:29 PM »
It's not a credible idea. It could only be put forward by people who have either never watched basketball or never watched gaelic football.

If this was brought into gaelic football, every single kickout would be uncontested. The team on the defence would bring every player back into their own 45m and try force their opponents to shoot long from distance. Rinse and repeat.

It would not only encourage a defensive set up, it would demand an ultra defensive set up.

I'm surprised it took only 4 posts before someone spoke sense and realised how much of a huge negative effect it would have. I'll be honest I only read the 1st 6 posts but it's mad how people think everything in the gaa is about Dublin.

This is not a cut at fermanagh, they are having a great year and all the best to them but for me how they are playing is atrocious in terms of a spectacle. If everyone played like this the game would be dead. Again I fully respect fermanagh and they've such a small pool of players and resources that they are doing what best for them and being very successful but this is an issue that nobody trys to fix if we want a better game to watch and take part in.

Sionnach

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2019, 09:54:00 PM »
How about this?
Shot clock of 1 minute.
At least 3 players have to be in the opposition 45 at all times.
5 hand passes before you have to kick.

Is that you Barry Hearn?

The 3 men in the 45 thing is impossible to police. Clock might be worth a try though.

No back pass to the keeper I’d recommend. Won’t solve all ills, but it’ll help.

Enforcing 3 or 4 men in the 45 becomes trivially easy to police by simply giving 3-4 designated attackers / defenders on each team a different jersey, like the goalkeeper.   There are a few small annoyances the rule would cause e.g. a player having to stop chasing the ball because it has gone back behind the 45, but frankly those would be a very small price to pay for ending the blanket defence in a single stroke.

Fionntamhnach

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2019, 11:17:26 PM »
Dinny's idea of a shot clock has merits, but wouldn't be practical to enforce in football at all levels, nor would it be likely in any field sport that isn't largely start-stop like American football. I'd rather suggest taking a leaf out of Olympic Handball when it comes to penalising teams that keep hold of possession with little/no intention in attacking the goal.

In that sport, they brought in a rule called "passive play" in the 90's when teams were throwing the ball amongst themselves especially near the end of each half in close games to simply keep possession away from their opponents without any real intention of making a shot on goal - similar to the problem in the NBA that Dinny linked to. So a rule was brought in to punish teams that were making no real attempt at scoring. Basically, if one of the referees (there's usually two referees in Olympic Handball) feels that the team in possession is making no real attempt in setting up a scoring opportunity and are just passing to each other, they raise a hand to signal to that team to warn them that if they don't make an adequate attacking play very soon, they'll be blown for "passive play" and the ball is turned over to the opposition.

Transferring this principle into Gaelic Football, the referee would judge wherever a team in possession is either trying to simply build up towards an attacking opportunity, or that they are simply holding on to possession without looking to advance towards their opponents goal for a scoring opportunity. For example, a team that is in possession of the ball has spent the last 20-25 seconds simply passing it among each other across the pitch and at times behind with no obvious sign of playing the ball forward into making an attacking or scoring opportunity. At this time, the referee would signal to the team in possession that they'd need to start making an attacking play or they'll be blown for passive play - this could be done using an arm signal and calling out a standardised phrase or word - and if after another 10-15 seconds if the team in possession still has in the opinion of the referee made no effective attacking progress, then (s)he blows their whistle, possession is turned over to the opposition with a free kick either where the player in possession was at the time of the foul or where the ball was last touched by the penalised team.

The time scales given above to suggest when a team in possession is warned, and then possibly blown up for passive play is arbitary - it would be at the referees discretion as to if a team is not making an effort to attack.

Objections to Dinny's suggestion would be that it would do nothing to help break down blanket defences. But the idea I have here isn't to necessarily cut that out. Rather it is to discourage teams playing in an overall very defensive fashion that do little attacking play during the course of the game, much more concerned about keeping what they concede down rather than trying to outscore the opposition. The rules of the game should encourage attacking play by both teams. A team playing under a game with a passive play penalty that was packing their defence would soon learn that if their opponents made a hospital pass forward which they easily intercepted they themselves would have to start attacking fairly quickly themselves lest they be penalised.

There are two possible holes in the above possession. One is that a team being warned of passive play would make a "faux" attack where the ball is played in to a team mate that looks like an attempt to start an attacking play, but results in that player quickly passing the ball back where the team again begin passing amongst one another again - the solution to that would be that once the referee gives a warning to a team for passive play it remains in force until the team either looses possession or the ball crosses their opponents end line for a wide, goal, point or 45. Another comes from the furore from the recent Ulster Schools U15.5 game between Abbey CBS Newry & St. Pat's Maghera - if a player on a team is deemed to deliberately kick or handle the ball out of play, unless it is done for sportsmanship reasons i.e. to allow an injured player to receive treatment, then the referee can award a free kick against that player's team from where the ball was last kicked or touched by them, whichever is more advantageous to the team awarded the free.

Unlike the shot clock idea, the "passive play" rule would be easy enough for a lone referee to apply at all levels of football, it doesn't put restrictions on how a player can play the ball nor try and apply zoning certain players or a certain amount of players to only certain places on the field. Of course there would be discussions about how lenient or strict a referee may apply the passive play rule, but unless you actually go into having a shot clock that most games would have players with no idea how many seconds are left plus a referee repeatedly looking, starting and restarting a second stopwatch, the judgement of the official will always be at play at the same level as to how they judge a foul, overcarry, score etc.

Comments, suggestions, criticism, flaws, offerings to me etc. welcome.
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BennyCake

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2019, 11:40:44 PM »
How about this?
Shot clock of 1 minute.
At least 3 players have to be in the opposition 45 at all times.
5 hand passes before you have to kick.

Is that you Barry Hearn?

The 3 men in the 45 thing is impossible to police. Clock might be worth a try though.

No back pass to the keeper I’d recommend. Won’t solve all ills, but it’ll help.

Enforcing 3 or 4 men in the 45 becomes trivially easy to police by simply giving 3-4 designated attackers / defenders on each team a different jersey, like the goalkeeper.   There are a few small annoyances the rule would cause e.g. a player having to stop chasing the ball because it has gone back behind the 45, but frankly those would be a very small price to pay for ending the blanket defence in a single stroke.

I think you just like disagreeing with Armagh men

Nothing like over-complicating things! If teams had less players, you wouldn’t need to keep 3/4 players in the opposing half. That’s the simplest solution and less strife for officials. It’s no wonder the refs get so much wrong.

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2019, 01:51:12 AM »
Are we not totally missing the point here?

We are trying to force the winning team go into an area packed with bodies rather than holding on to possession and trying to draw the defending team out.

Surely we should be stopping the defending team from all sitting inside their own 45
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thewobbler

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Re: Shot Clock
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2019, 07:40:29 AM »
Are we not totally missing the point here?

We are trying to force the winning team go into an area packed with bodies rather than holding on to possession and trying to draw the defending team out.

Surely we should be stopping the defending team from all sitting inside their own 45

You have to look at this problem laterally.

What basketball’s shotclock, and halfway line, does is place the onus on the team with the ball to attack. Rugby league’s 5th tackle the same. NFL’s 4th down the same.

By restricting the potential for endless ball retention, it changes the dynamic of how both teams approach the game. A team whose sole intention is to minimise the number of attacks they face, runs into the problem that they’ll face a much larger number of attacks. It’s surely only natural at this point yo ensure that these attacks are snuffed out as far away from their own goal as possible; hence they’ll step up a little. Then maybe a little more. Whereas a more attack minded team would surely be required to include a regular long ball option in their arsenal; it is the ultimate plan B - so coaches would be forced - against their current “better judgement” to train players in delivering longer passes.

——

FWIW I reckons fionntomnach’s concept has serious legs. It is so simple that is bloody clever.

In terms if implementation, it would need accompanied by a strict edict, across all matches from u10 club to AISF, that referees will book and send off anyone and everyone who accuses them of poor time management / bias / cheating. Everyone would need to get on board with the fact that this rule is not designed not to reward defence, but to penalise a lack of attacking intent. It requires a cultural change among our robotic players and paranoid managers. The quickest way to see that change through is with red cards. Everywhere.