Author Topic: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019  (Read 13340 times)

Redhand Santa

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2019, 08:07:19 AM »
The system works great for Kerry and they should be allowed to do what they want internally. But something should change in terms of who is allowed to enter the provincial championships as they currently have an unfair advantage over most counties.

Ball Hopper

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2019, 08:19:08 AM »
The system works great for Kerry and they should be allowed to do what they want internally. But something should change in terms of who is allowed to enter the provincial championships as they currently have an unfair advantage over most counties.

What is unfair?  Kerry have decided that 8 senior clubs is enough, and add 9 divisional teams for the county championship (there is one preliminary game between the two worst performing divisional teams to bring the number of teams in Round 1 to 16). 

If (insert your county here) decide that 16 clubs are senior and no divisional amalgamations are allowed, what is wrong with that?  Your county mighn't win All-Ireland club championships, but your internal competitions can be seen to be "pure". 

I tend to agree that Kerry have somewhat of an advantage with their structure, but it is on the others to mirror that structure rather than complain about it. 

The concept of neighbouring clubs agreeing to amalgamate might be frightening in some counties though - in Kerry it is not.  Maybe that's the problem elsewhere. 


spuds

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2019, 10:08:05 AM »
If Dr. Crokes win their semi, it would mean 3 Kerry clubs within a 5 mile radius would be in the 3 Club All Ireland finals

Dr Crokes, Kilcummin & Beaufort all in Kerry division 1 league for 2019?

A Junior team in Div 1? They’ll be blown away :D

Beaufort won 4 games in Div 1 in 2018 (John Mitchels, Glenbeigh-Glencar, Kerins O'Rahillys and Killarney Legion) and had 1 draw (Rathmore).  They finished 3rd from bottom, only a point below Killarney Legion and Dingle.  They suffered their biggest loss of the campaign to Dr. Crokes, going down by 10 points.  Other biggish losses were by 8 (St. Mary's) and 6 (Spa).  Tight losses by 2 to both An Ghaeltacht and Templenoe and a one point loss to Dingle show they were not far away from picking up points.

Although relegated, they were far from blown away.  The fact that they have no county men meant they had a full squad for all league games, barring the usual injuries, players on holidays and suspensions.

So Beaufort were in division 1 last year (of an 8 team league) and are playing in the Junior Cship.

Right so.

Sounds fair

12 teams in Div 1 to 4 in Kerry.  What makes it really competitive is 3 promoted and 3 relegated from each division.  County league is not linked to tiered championship, so the league is really inferior to the club championships - no starred games or anything like that.  The purpose of the league is to give games during the summer to non-county players. 

A little history of Kerry's league might be in order here - the county league started in 1970, the same year the ban was removed.  The intent was to keep players from playing the garrison game without penalty.  The championships always reigned supreme over the league. 

The beauty of the divisional set-up is that a good player from a poor club will be seen.  John Kennedy (member of the 1984-1986 3-in-row team) was from Asdee in North Kerry.  Asdee went years without winning a game in county league or novice championship, but due to the divisional set-up, John was able to play with Shannon Rangers (comprising of about 5 clubs) and showed he belonged at the higher level.

To move from junior to intermediate, you must win the junior championship (ditto from intermediate to senior).  It's not that hard to understand.

In Kerry's county championship in 2019, there are big changes.  Kilcummin will probably go senior (having won the intermediate in 2018), at the expense of weakening East Kerry.  Similarly, An Ghaeltacht drop out of senior, but West Kerry get stronger immediately.

It is a very vibrant county championship as there are big changes every year. 

I really don't understand why this issue is raised year after year.  In Cork it is very hard to get relegated...does that really help the overall standard?  If they present their 9th best club as intermediate, would Munster titles result? I say they would, but egos prevent certain clubs being called intermediate - even if a possible All-Ireland title is possible. 

For 2019 in Kerry County League, the famed Laune Rangers from Killorglin (winners of All-Ireland senior club championship in 1996) will compete in division 4.

Nothing is sacred in championship or league - you will play at the level you deserve.
Fantastic system and well explained thanks. It's unfortunate for the competitiveness of the Munater & all Iteland club competitions that the Kerry intermediate & junior winners are not matching like for like coming up against other county champions. In my opinion takes away from these victories. Not Kerry's fault.
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BennyCake

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2019, 10:29:59 AM »
The provincial/All Ireland club is skewed no matter what you do. People say Kerry teams are at an advantage. But a strong club scene in say, Tyrone, a junior team there might be at the same standard as senior teams in say, Louth.

A club team is only rated as high/low depending on the rest of the teams in that county.

outinfront

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2019, 11:14:54 AM »
Well then this year there are 2 Div1 intermediate teams up against each other in the final so not much to complain about there.

GalwayBayBoy

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2019, 08:07:17 PM »
The system works great for Kerry and they should be allowed to do what they want internally. But something should change in terms of who is allowed to enter the provincial championships as they currently have an unfair advantage over most counties.

I wouldn't say it's unfair as any county could change the structure of their championship. The small number of senior clubs means they are very strong at intermediate and junior though and it probably gives a slightly false impression of their strength in depth when up against clubs from other counties that are much further down the totem pole in their own county. I mean we had 20 senior clubs in Galway until last year. Mad stuff. That's way too many IMO and they've reduced it to 18 this year with plans to reduce it further to 16. I wouldn't be against them reducing it to 12 to be honest.

Great system for Kerry. Strange how few counties if any have tried to copy a version of it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:20:36 PM by GalwayBayBoy »

Fionntamhnach

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2019, 08:34:34 PM »
The provincial/All Ireland club is skewed no matter what you do. People say Kerry teams are at an advantage. But a strong club scene in say, Tyrone, a junior team there might be at the same standard as senior teams in say, Louth.

A club team is only rated as high/low depending on the rest of the teams in that county.

I'd have serious doubts that senior club football in Louth is at that poor of a standard.

The issue of Kerry clubs is a reoccouring talking point year after year. The club system they have down there appears to work very well but it arguably does put their clubs at Intermediate & Junior football levels at an advantage at provincial/All-Ireland with so few clubs playing at senior football level so I'd propose a rule to help partly standardise such entrants across the board.

Namely that a county's senior football championship must have a minimum amount of club teams in its competition, set at either at least one quarter of clubs in that county who entered at least one team in an adult championship (excluding U20/21 comps) in the previous competition year, or 16 clubs - whichever figure is lower for the county concerned. Then at Intermediate level a similar rule would apply, again either one quarter of clubs or 16 whichever is lower, all of whom do not have a team also competing in the county senior championship that same competition year (i.e. club second/reserve teams don't county towards the minimum figure).

Beyond that at Junior (A)/B/C/D/E/Reserve etc. the county CCC are free to make their own arrangements. Counties would still be free to allow amalgamations, divisional teams (and for Intermediate championships, second string teams) to compete in these championships - albeit still with the restriction of such teams not able to compete at provincial & All-Ireland levels - but they would have to meet the criteria of a minimum amount of clubs competing in their competitions above. Failure to do so would see the county forfeit its right to send club teams into the provincial competitions at all three levels that competition year.

Also, state that the top tier club football championship in the county means their winners (or the best eligible team if the winners can't go forward to provincial competition) play in the Senior club championship at provincial level. Then regardless of what they call their second tier championship, those winners go forward to play in the Intermediate provincial championship, with the third tier championship winners playing in the Junior provincial championship with a proviso that Intermediate entrants cannot have played a championship game at senior level (tier 1) in the county that year, nor the Junior entrants played at Senior or Intermediate (Tiers 1 & 2). An exemption would be granted to Kilkenny where at present their Senior football champions enter the Leinster club IFC and their Intermediate football champions enter the Leinster club JFC - the exemption to be reviewed should the Kilkenny SFC winners go on to win the Leinster club IFC.

If the above spins yer head, I'll try and give practical examples. So for example in Tyrone there are 48 football clubs - one quarter of that is 12 teams, so they would be mandated to have at least 12 clubs in their senior & intermediate football championships (currently it's 16 each with the JFC containing 16 first teams & one "thirds" team that is not eligible to progress to Ulster should they win the Junior championship). Meanwhile in Fermanagh there is just 20 football clubs, so would be required to have at least five club teams competing in their senior & intermediate club championship (currently 8 each, with 4 junior clubs). And if my sums are right, Monaghan has 29 football clubs, so they would need at least 8 club teams at senior & intermediate. For counties with more than 64 clubs playing adult football, the minimum amount of club sides required to compete in their senior & intermediate championships would be capped at 16, though of course they are free to have more than this involved.

The provincial & All-Ireland club hurling Intermediate & Junior competitions would need a different approach given the much wider difference in clubs, participation levels and abilities across Ireland compared to that for football, but there doesn't seem to be the same concern of one county semi-dominating either provincial or All-Ireland Intermediate & Junior club championships so I don't think they would need to be a noticeable amount of tweaking.

End of my €0.02
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inabsentia

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2019, 09:33:40 AM »
The provincial/All Ireland club is skewed no matter what you do. People say Kerry teams are at an advantage. But a strong club scene in say, Tyrone, a junior team there might be at the same standard as senior teams in say, Louth.

A club team is only rated as high/low depending on the rest of the teams in that county.

I'd have serious doubts that senior club football in Louth is at that poor of a standard.

The issue of Kerry clubs is a reoccouring talking point year after year. The club system they have down there appears to work very well but it arguably does put their clubs at Intermediate & Junior football levels at an advantage at provincial/All-Ireland with so few clubs playing at senior football level so I'd propose a rule to help partly standardise such entrants across the board.

Namely that a county's senior football championship must have a minimum amount of club teams in its competition, set at either at least one quarter of clubs in that county who entered at least one team in an adult championship (excluding U20/21 comps) in the previous competition year, or 16 clubs - whichever figure is lower for the county concerned. Then at Intermediate level a similar rule would apply, again either one quarter of clubs or 16 whichever is lower, all of whom do not have a team also competing in the county senior championship that same competition year (i.e. club second/reserve teams don't county towards the minimum figure).

Beyond that at Junior (A)/B/C/D/E/Reserve etc. the county CCC are free to make their own arrangements. Counties would still be free to allow amalgamations, divisional teams (and for Intermediate championships, second string teams) to compete in these championships - albeit still with the restriction of such teams not able to compete at provincial & All-Ireland levels - but they would have to meet the criteria of a minimum amount of clubs competing in their competitions above. Failure to do so would see the county forfeit its right to send club teams into the provincial competitions at all three levels that competition year.

Also, state that the top tier club football championship in the county means their winners (or the best eligible team if the winners can't go forward to provincial competition) play in the Senior club championship at provincial level. Then regardless of what they call their second tier championship, those winners go forward to play in the Intermediate provincial championship, with the third tier championship winners playing in the Junior provincial championship with a proviso that Intermediate entrants cannot have played a championship game at senior level (tier 1) in the county that year, nor the Junior entrants played at Senior or Intermediate (Tiers 1 & 2). An exemption would be granted to Kilkenny where at present their Senior football champions enter the Leinster club IFC and their Intermediate football champions enter the Leinster club JFC - the exemption to be reviewed should the Kilkenny SFC winners go on to win the Leinster club IFC.

If the above spins yer head, I'll try and give practical examples. So for example in Tyrone there are 48 football clubs - one quarter of that is 12 teams, so they would be mandated to have at least 12 clubs in their senior & intermediate football championships (currently it's 16 each with the JFC containing 16 first teams & one "thirds" team that is not eligible to progress to Ulster should they win the Junior championship). Meanwhile in Fermanagh there is just 20 football clubs, so would be required to have at least five club teams competing in their senior & intermediate club championship (currently 8 each, with 4 junior clubs). And if my sums are right, Monaghan has 29 football clubs, so they would need at least 8 club teams at senior & intermediate. For counties with more than 64 clubs playing adult football, the minimum amount of club sides required to compete in their senior & intermediate championships would be capped at 16, though of course they are free to have more than this involved.

The provincial & All-Ireland club hurling Intermediate & Junior competitions would need a different approach given the much wider difference in clubs, participation levels and abilities across Ireland compared to that for football, but there doesn't seem to be the same concern of one county semi-dominating either provincial or All-Ireland Intermediate & Junior club championships so I don't think they would need to be a noticeable amount of tweaking.

End of my €0.02

This is a well thought out example of how to allow for a fairer provincial series but it's a non-starter because the GAA will value county autonomy over the fairness of the competition. And if I'm being honest, while it looks good on paper I reckon it'd be hard to find a one size fits all solution for every county.

toby47

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2019, 11:14:59 AM »
Absolute rubbish that senior teams last played on 2nd December in provincial final and have to wait until 16th Feb to play again. 11 week gap with no games or anything.

In the mean time players cant play for collages or county team and also end up getting no break all year round.

The club calendar is a shambles



Owenmoresider

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2019, 12:04:57 PM »
Absolute rubbish that senior teams last played on 2nd December in provincial final and have to wait until 16th Feb to play again. 11 week gap with no games or anything.

In the mean time players cant play for collages or county team and also end up getting no break all year round.

The club calendar is a shambles
Forcing the club championships into one calendar year would cause mayhem without an even more truncated intercounty season to go with it, but would it be an idea to run off the semi-finals pre Christmas and leave the club finals to the traditional St. Patrick's Day slot?

DownFanatic

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2019, 12:07:08 PM »
In regards Kerry this year:

Beaufort who are in the All Ireland JFC final this year. They played division 1 league football in Kerry last year.
Kilcummin who are in the All Ireland IFC final this year. They played in division 2 league football in Kerry last year.
Completely skewed.

toby47

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2019, 12:19:29 PM »
Absolute rubbish that senior teams last played on 2nd December in provincial final and have to wait until 16th Feb to play again. 11 week gap with no games or anything.

In the mean time players cant play for collages or county team and also end up getting no break all year round.

The club calendar is a shambles
Forcing the club championships into one calendar year would cause mayhem without an even more truncated intercounty season to go with it, but would it be an idea to run off the semi-finals pre Christmas and leave the club finals to the traditional St. Patrick's Day slot?


This year their will be 28 weeks between the All-Ireland football final & the All Ireland Club final.

Extremely drawn out! Using my own county as an example you are going to have probably 9 games from 1st round in county championship to All-Ireland final (10 if you are in prelim)

A shit comparison but this weekend will be 24 weeks since the premiership started (start date 11th Aug) and teams will already have played 23 league games (some with 6 European games) and a minimum of 2 cup games. I know it's a silly comparison with a professional sport but the point is how much the club season is dragged out. Especially the stage between Provincial Final and All Ireland Semi (11 weeks) and then the break to the All Ireland Final (4 weeks)

JoG2

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2019, 01:12:34 PM »
Absolute rubbish that senior teams last played on 2nd December in provincial final and have to wait until 16th Feb to play again. 11 week gap with no games or anything.

In the mean time players cant play for collages or county team and also end up getting no break all year round.

The club calendar is a shambles
Forcing the club championships into one calendar year would cause mayhem without an even more truncated intercounty season to go with it, but would it be an idea to run off the semi-finals pre Christmas and leave the club finals to the traditional St. Patrick's Day slot?


This year their will be 28 weeks between the All-Ireland football final & the All Ireland Club final.

Extremely drawn out! Using my own county as an example you are going to have probably 9 games from 1st round in county championship to All-Ireland final (10 if you are in prelim)

A shit comparison but this weekend will be 24 weeks since the premiership started (start date 11th Aug) and teams will already have played 23 league games (some with 6 European games) and a minimum of 2 cup games. I know it's a silly comparison with a professional sport but the point is how much the club season is dragged out. Especially the stage between Provincial Final and All Ireland Semi (11 weeks) and then the break to the All Ireland Final (4 weeks)

Training to match ratios off the charts

Ball Hopper

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2019, 07:06:18 PM »
Absolute rubbish that senior teams last played on 2nd December in provincial final and have to wait until 16th Feb to play again. 11 week gap with no games or anything.

In the mean time players cant play for collages or county team and also end up getting no break all year round.

The club calendar is a shambles

Dr. Crokes had the East Kerry Championship in December.  Played Rd 1 game on Thursday 6th, quarter final on 14th, semi-final on 16th, final on 22nd.

Bereavements caused Rd1 1 being a day late and the quarter final being 5 days late quarter final on Friday night, with the semi on the Sunday. 

To highlight the gap between senior and intermediate, Dr. Crokes (senior champs) beat Kilcummin (intermediate champs) in the final on a scoreline of 3-24 to 1-8 (half time 2-11 to 0-2).

People very unhappy about the way the competition was run in 2018...expect changes in 2019 with at least a round or two earlier in the year.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 07:10:50 PM by Ball Hopper »

Ball Hopper

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Re: Club Championships Jan-Mar 2019
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2019, 07:07:37 PM »
In regards Kerry this year:

Beaufort who are in the All Ireland JFC final this year. They played division 1 league football in Kerry last year.
Kilcummin who are in the All Ireland IFC final this year. They played in division 2 league football in Kerry last year.
Completely skewed.

You obviously don't understand that County League tables mean nothing for club championship football in Kerry.