Author Topic: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football  (Read 22708 times)

Itchy

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #360 on: January 07, 2019, 04:46:33 PM »

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Yes, you leave your defense more vulnerable but it is risk versus reward, if you are successful you might score a lot too and the game might be better to watch.

mrdeeds

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #361 on: January 07, 2019, 05:35:58 PM »
47 goals last year in first two rounds of McKenna cup. 24 this year and that includes 6 for Armagh v Marys.

trailer

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #362 on: January 07, 2019, 05:46:19 PM »
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.


Zulu

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #363 on: January 07, 2019, 06:06:46 PM »

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Although I'm not in favour of restricting the hand pass as I don't think it's the best way to address the ills of the game I'm with Itchy in giving it time to evolve. As he said, you won't see massive changes in the first 2 or 3 pre-season games teams play, especially when they don't know if they'll ever play under those rules again. However, I do see how the three hand pass restriction can encourage less packed defences which is the real problem.


If you drop everyone back inside your 45 and turnover the opposition on the top of the D but have only three hand passes before needing to kick teams may decide it's not worth getting everyone back. If my team got turned over on the oppositions D I could well see how we would look to push up on the opposition knowing that they can't run the ball out as easily as they could now.


I see no reason why pushing up would expose your own defence. If your opponents just left one or two players up you can easily mark them from in front as long as the defenders are fairly quick, which all counties and most clubs would have.



The current experimental rules may not be the best way forward but I haven't heard any suggestion that doesn't have flaws so why not give these time? Mind you, I think experimental rules should never be used in league or championship until they've been trialled for at least two years at other levels. Rule changes will not be given time at senior IC level to full demonstrate whether they work or not.
 


hardstation

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #364 on: January 07, 2019, 06:59:21 PM »
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.


Rossfan

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #365 on: January 07, 2019, 07:31:11 PM »
They should be banned for life and tattooed with Union Jacks.
It could be the end of the GAA as we know it.
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Esmarelda

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #366 on: January 07, 2019, 07:36:34 PM »
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?

Franko

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #367 on: January 08, 2019, 08:06:45 AM »
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.

Hound

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #368 on: January 08, 2019, 09:28:10 AM »
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?

I think the 3 handpass rule could suit Dublin and Mayo.
When opposition are on second/third handpass, they'll be vulnerable, high press, force turnover, then swarm forward. Might leave some gaps at the back if there's another turnover, but Dubs and Mayo have confidence in their backs to deal with opposition 1 v 1.  Although frankly, its unlikely most opposition would leave enough men forward to make it 1 v 1.

It won't instantly help negate mass defence tactics, and it might get worse before it gets better, but hopefully it won't belong before most teams realise they have to be more attacking to get results

Itchy

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #369 on: January 08, 2019, 10:44:33 AM »
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?

I think the 3 handpass rule could suit Dublin and Mayo.
When opposition are on second/third handpass, they'll be vulnerable, high press, force turnover, then swarm forward. Might leave some gaps at the back if there's another turnover, but Dubs and Mayo have confidence in their backs to deal with opposition 1 v 1.  Although frankly, its unlikely most opposition would leave enough men forward to make it 1 v 1.

It won't instantly help negate mass defence tactics, and it might get worse before it gets better, but hopefully it won't belong before most teams realise they have to be more attacking to get results

That's exactly how I see it, might take time for some coaches to realise it as they are so ingrained in copy catting the Jim McGuinness template. That said, they will probably succeed in getting the whole thing binned and we will be back to square 1.

blewuporstuffed

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #370 on: January 08, 2019, 11:24:55 AM »
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.
I agree 100%
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either

Dubhaltach

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #371 on: January 08, 2019, 06:25:19 PM »
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.
I agree 100%

So true. How the powers that be can't see this is beyond me. As long as refs consistently give the benefit of the doubt to the man in possession, we will continue to see blanket defences. No amount of flawed handpass rules will change this.

Itchy

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #372 on: January 09, 2019, 08:15:13 AM »
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

blewuporstuffed

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #373 on: January 09, 2019, 09:52:21 AM »
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules
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Rossfan

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Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
« Reply #374 on: January 09, 2019, 10:02:11 AM »
Telling that the rule most complain about is the anti throwball one.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.