Paul Kimmage interviews Sean Cavanagh

[An Watcher]

Don't really see the problem here and it is probably used to help b9nd the team more than anything.  No big deal

[Itchy]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

I don't think your comparisons to OO are correct. But in general your point is. Harte should not be forcing his players to attend mass or say the Rosary or anything like that. But Harte is a bully and unfortunately a successful Bully which means his methods are beyond question from many in Tyrone. Do Tyrone have any protestants playing for them? Probably unlikely they will if this is what is going on. I think Ulster GAA or national GAA should put some sort of ban or at least a statement out saying this is not acceptable.

[haranguerer]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

I don't think your comparisons to OO are correct. But in general your point is. Harte should not be forcing his players to attend mass or say the Rosary or anything like that. But Harte is a bully and unfortunately a successful Bully which means his methods are beyond question from many in Tyrone. Do Tyrone have any protestants playing for them? Probably unlikely they will if this is what is going on. I think Ulster GAA or national GAA should put some sort of ban or at least a statement out saying this is not acceptable.

Not that a post as ridiculous as yours deserves any acknowledgement, but perhaps worth point out again - there has been no suggestion from any informed sources that Harte was forcing his players to attend mass.

[Zulu]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

[southtyronegael]

Anyone who knows harte, knows how he operates. Toe the line or your out. How do we know that the likes of talented footballers like Darren Mc curry or Kyle Coney and the likes haven't left the panel because of this forced religion?

[brokencrossbar1]

I know EG is simply trying to attack the GAA, as is his way, but I agree that there should be no group forced religion brought into the squad set up. 20 years ago it may have been acceptable,  plenty of team masses when I was playing and never an eye lid batted. In fact they became part of the routine and as a player routine is everything so it was important to retain it. However, we could have opted out if we wanted to and lads did the odd time and the management didn’t make an issue.

[trailer]

Everyone on the panel is Catholic. People are away with the fairies, as far as this is concerned. If they don't want to be Catholic and say prayers they are allowed to have that choice. Not one Tyrone player past or present has said anything against this.
It is not a cult. If people want to be Catholics part of that is praying, First Communion, Confirmation likewise.
What's the next outrage? Tyrone development squad all forced to make their confirmation. People need to get some perspective on this. They're not reading Mein Kampf for God's sake. They're saying prayers. And the last time I checked you're still allowed to do this.

[Jinxy]

We used to sacrifice a goat before games.

[Rossfan]

Do Linfield and other 6 Cos Soccer teams commemorate the British armed forces every November?

[Give and Go]

While we go into meltdown over prayers in Tyrone, not an eyelid is batted at the close link between American Football and 'Church'. Religion is a huge part of football in US, huge teams from many faith backgrounds participate in prayer before games... I've been to some games there and its a common sight to see individual players kneel and pray before games and its done collectively in the locker rooms.
You can say it has no relevance here but it is interesting that it happens and there does not seem to be any outrage over it.
We are getting too excited. I don't believe Mickey forced his beliefs on anyone and all willingly participated.

[Boycey]

Everyone on the panel is Catholic. People are away with the fairies, as far as this is concerned. If they don't want to be Catholic and say prayers they are allowed to have that choice. Not one Tyrone player past or present has said anything against this.
It is not a cult. If people want to be Catholics part of that is praying, First Communion, Confirmation likewise.
What's the next outrage? Tyrone development squad all forced to make their confirmation. People need to get some perspective on this. They're not reading Mein Kampf for God's sake. They're saying prayers. And the last time I checked you're still allowed to do this.

Practising Catholics? or more likely born into a Catholic family/background but couldn't really give a shite now like most of us... Faith is a personal thing and should be kept as such.

[GetOverTheBar]

Everyone on the panel is Catholic. People are away with the fairies, as far as this is concerned. If they don't want to be Catholic and say prayers they are allowed to have that choice. Not one Tyrone player past or present has said anything against this.
It is not a cult. If people want to be Catholics part of that is praying, First Communion, Confirmation likewise.
What's the next outrage? Tyrone development squad all forced to make their confirmation. People need to get some perspective on this. They're not reading Mein Kampf for God's sake. They're saying prayers. And the last time I checked you're still allowed to do this.

No, they aren't.

[haranguerer]

I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.

Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)

You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much). 

[haranguerer]

Anyone who knows harte, knows how he operates. Toe the line or your out. How do we know that the likes of talented footballers like Darren Mc curry or Kyle Coney and the likes haven't left the panel because of this forced religion?

What a strange way for a manager to operate 

Why don't you ask Kyle why he's no longer there?
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/i-relied-solely-on-my-talent-that-was-my-downfall-how-the-future-of-tyrone-football-let-his-senior-chance-slip-37264330.html

[tiempo]

Are the wider backroom team also attending these masses and prayer sessions and by implication are they all Catholic too? Is Mickey fronting a sectarian cabal here, no Prods welcome? Or a multi-denominational cabal? Or a trans faith-agnostic cabal? As for his nepotism it's probably off topic.