Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 26425 times)

Mayo4Sam

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #990 on: May 28, 2018, 12:27:47 PM »
Fair enough, I stand corrected. Surprised at that to be honest. Although I suppose FF's vote has collapsed in Dublin, so it's probably a more rural vote, which was closer in most cases anyway I think.

I think its 33 out of 41 FF TDs were opposed including would be successors to MM Michael McGrath and Dara Calleary.

I won't be one for giving credit to FF but I think it was exceptionally courageous what MM did. He was one of the first party leaders to declare and did so very strongly and can't have been easy given the level of opposition in his party.
Its left FF as a bit of a mess
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Rossfan

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #991 on: May 28, 2018, 12:46:04 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

armaghniac

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #992 on: May 28, 2018, 12:48:46 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

They'll just take the staff from cancer patients and the like and let them wait.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #993 on: May 28, 2018, 01:16:28 PM »
Stand by for a massive new round of fake news from shameless anti-choicers as the legislation is debated and passed.

Absolutely nothing will be off limits.

The irony is that anti-choicers will be desperately hoping for as high an abortion rate as possible in order to try and say "I told you so". 

Late in the campaign they tried to claim, in desperation, that "we can do so much more for women".

So, what are they going to do for women?

The answer, without a shadow of a doubt, is absolutely nothing.

They won't be campaigning for free contraception, or comprehensive sex education, or better supports for single parents, or better supports for parents of disabled children, or better childcare.

What we can expect from them is intimidation and outright bullying of women and staff at GP clinics and hospitals - and even more extremist behaviour than they have already engaged in.

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #994 on: May 28, 2018, 01:49:35 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?



So, what are they going to do for women?

The answer, without a shadow of a doubt, is absolutely nothing.

They won't be campaigning for free contraception, or comprehensive sex education, or better supports for single parents, or better supports for parents of disabled children, or better childcare.


Most of the supports are also off limit to your average right wing conservative type.  I think it will be up to the "soft yes" representation to push for this.   Those that see abortion as a necessary evil but an evil all the same.  Coveney for example is making the right noises.

In fact some of the things that you class as supports would likely be fought tooth and nail by likes of Iona etc.. such as freer access to contraception and comprehensive sex education.

/Jim.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:53:11 PM by Jim_Murphy_74 »

AZOffaly

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #995 on: May 28, 2018, 01:53:21 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

haranguerer

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #996 on: May 28, 2018, 01:56:48 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Would it not be less than if they were not to have the abortion, so needed care for the full term and birth??  :o

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #997 on: May 28, 2018, 02:03:38 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.

AZOffaly

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #998 on: May 28, 2018, 02:06:54 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.

Is a DNC required?

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #999 on: May 28, 2018, 02:22:13 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

You really don't know anything about this issue, do you?

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #1000 on: May 28, 2018, 02:43:51 PM »
Ok folks -practical realities
How many new Gynaecologists and support staff will the Health Service need for the 3 months no reason abortions?
24 month waiting lists not a runner here.

Surely anything less than 3 months will be a trip to the GP for a pill?  Maybe one scan at most?  What will these new Gynies and and staff be doing?

/Jim.

I thought the abortion pill required medical supervision etc? They are unsafe if not administered and monitored by a specialist?

Most of the time, no.  I would expect that the only medical supervision would be a general checkup and a scan in the case of history of ectopic pregancies.  Most would be prescribed pill once the matter is discussed and that they still want to proceed after the 72hour cooling off period.  They would be told to go home and wait for things to happen and contact medics in the event  of something going wrong.  I don't envisage many women being admitted while they wait for events to take their course after the pills.

/Jim.

Is a DNC required?

I'm not a medic but I guess if a woman has heavy bleeding during her subsequent periods the yes, a DNC would be required then.  I don't think you say it is definitely needed.

I would be of a belief (maybe mistaken) that under new legislation a woman can go to GP, discuss taking the pill, have a checkup and get prescription.  If they are unlucky enough to have issue they will feel free to return to GP for follow up.  I am guessing today that women are either taking pills or getting a one-off appointment in UK.  So any follow up treatment is already part of our system.   

For most cases I would guess the only extra "load" is that like any prescription medicine there will be some checking done up front.

Open to correction by the intelligentsia here of course.

/Jim.

easytiger95

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #1001 on: May 28, 2018, 03:33:16 PM »
I thought the danger with current usage of abortion pills here was twofold- as they were ordered online, you couldn't be 100 percent sure that the pills were as the packaging described, and that people could not visit their GP to check if they were vulnerable to side effects before they purchased them.
Both those dangers are removed once GPs can prescribe and pharmacists can dispense. So a large majority of pre 12 weeks abortion would be dealt with through home care and monitoring.

The Boy Wonder

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #1002 on: May 28, 2018, 08:56:10 PM »
It's good to see that some journalists can still take a balanced view.

"‘I don’t want to rain all over the repeal parade but I can’t bring myself to celebrate abortions

Irish Independent 28 May 2018 Barbara McCarthy

IRELAND is still the same country today as it was before, just a little more tolerant, open and respectful,” Leo Varadkar said outside Dublin Castle on Saturday, where thousands of people chanting “Yes” gathered to celebrate.
I’d love to rephrase that: ‘Ireland has more authoritarian bigots who think they’re liberals than it did before.’
Repealing the Eighth Amendment was essentially a victory over the Catholic Church. Feminists, nonpartisans and politicians hugged each other, crying ‘we made it’ as they shattered the illusion that the Church was their moral arbiter.
It would be great if it wasn’t so righteous. All I can see is a country that isn’t that different than it was before, because ultimately Irish people are sheep who will do anything to impress global outsiders.
One of the great paradigms of propaganda is bandwagon mentality, which was evident outside Dublin Castle on Saturday.
But I don’t want to rain all over their repeal parade.
I’m happy for the tireless campaigners who have been fighting for women’s rights for decades, and for women who no longer have to travel to the UK for abortions when their babies suffer from fatal foetal abnormality. I’m happy victims of rape, incest or domestic violence can have abortions at home. But will I jump up and down like a fool singing Tracy Chapman’s ‘Talkin’ bout a revolution’ amidst cars beeping down on South William Street in Dublin’s enclave of the absolutist left and the blue haircut?
Absolutely not.
I can’t bring myself to celebrate abortions. I know, what a weirdo.
Anyway, the No side, who make up one-third of the electorate, has been gracious in defeat. Many expressed sadness that they couldn’t do more for the unborn.
For many repealers, unfortunately, it’s been a disgusting gloat-fest.
This was not an easy campaign to get behind. Many of us spent years deliberating, ruminating, going back and forth. It was like ‘Sophie’s Choice’. I’m pro-life, but I really don’t like telling people how to live their lives. The No side voted out of conscience against the introduction of the death penalty to the unborn. Yes voters voted for women to have autonomy over their bodies.
The dichotomy was palpable, but how can you be 100pc for one or the other?
It’s not that women haven’t suffered under the Eighth – there are heartbreaking stories on both sides. I have two cousins who were both told their babies would have Down syndrome and doctors suggested they abort. Both kept their children. Both were fine.
In this age of idealistic social media obsession and positivity memes, the lack of compassion, especially from female journalists, was unnerving. Nell McCafferty was one of the few who displayed some empathy towards the embryo.
That’s not to say the No side didn’t make mistakes. The posters were too much, and the fact that many campaigners were Catholic worked against them.
But then again, as we officially release ourselves from the shackles of the Church in front of a global audience, it’s easy to forget how Irish people let priests control their lives.
Mothers were complicit, not afraid to take the priest’s word over that of their own child, spoiling their sons over their daughters.
But yeah, in hindsight, let’s blame the Church and bang on about how awful old Ireland was.
I sometimes forget I grew up here, too. I’m not Catholic and I never went to a convent school, which is good because I was allowed to think for myself, but like many others I’m not downtrodden, abused and enslaved. From my recollection, the 80s and 90s were amazing in Ireland.
It’s important we remember that just because women who came before us suffered, doesn’t mean we can collectively ride on their coat tails of victimhood. If you haven’t been oppressed, don’t make out you’re oppressed. The women crying outside Dublin Castle in repeal jumpers probably haven’t been to the Magdalene laundries or even had an abortion, so why are they carrying the burden? Victim culture is dangerous for the individual and society.
But not to worry, we’re a great little country, open and modern – at least CNN and other global media outlets think so. And we’re amazing at selling ourselves, even to each other.
“Under the Eighth Amendment, women in crisis have been told you are on your own. Today we say that we want to stand with you,” Health Minister Simon Harris said, after being egged on by the crowd who were donning ‘we fancy Simon Harris’ posters.
Momentum is great for governments. In the ecstatic trance of a Yes vote, people were saying things like, “I trust our Government to legislate on this properly”.
Forgetful much? What about the cover-up surrounding the cervical smear scandal, endemic corruption, domestic abuse, murder and the fact that women are less safe in Ireland than ever before, out of control homelessness, static housing, obscene rents, vulture capitalism, inequitable taxation, gangland crime, expensive childcare, soaring suicide rates, mental health, corporate largesse, the list goes on.
Sure, once the repealers have stopped trolling pro-lifers online in a virtuous trance, and thrown their repeal jumpers in the back of their wardrobes, maybe they’ll see that too. Once the smoke and mirrors are gone, life in Ireland has never been more people-unfriendly.
Trailblazer Ailbhe Smyth said “equality and justice and freedom for people” exists now that women can have abortions, but what if we can’t afford to live here, or afford abortions.
With that in mind, let’s make our next battle about something that really affects us all, like the rental crisis, and we’ll see how much political engagement we get.
"

seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #1003 on: May 28, 2018, 09:03:30 PM »
It's good to see that some journalists can still take a balanced view.

"‘I don’t want to rain all over the repeal parade but I can’t bring myself to celebrate abortions

Irish Independent 28 May 2018 Barbara McCarthy

IRELAND is still the same country today as it was before, just a little more tolerant, open and respectful,” Leo Varadkar said outside Dublin Castle on Saturday, where thousands of people chanting “Yes” gathered to celebrate.
I’d love to rephrase that: ‘Ireland has more authoritarian bigots who think they’re liberals than it did before.’
Repealing the Eighth Amendment was essentially a victory over the Catholic Church. Feminists, nonpartisans and politicians hugged each other, crying ‘we made it’ as they shattered the illusion that the Church was their moral arbiter.
It would be great if it wasn’t so righteous. All I can see is a country that isn’t that different than it was before, because ultimately Irish people are sheep who will do anything to impress global outsiders.
One of the great paradigms of propaganda is bandwagon mentality, which was evident outside Dublin Castle on Saturday.
But I don’t want to rain all over their repeal parade.
I’m happy for the tireless campaigners who have been fighting for women’s rights for decades, and for women who no longer have to travel to the UK for abortions when their babies suffer from fatal foetal abnormality. I’m happy victims of rape, incest or domestic violence can have abortions at home. But will I jump up and down like a fool singing Tracy Chapman’s ‘Talkin’ bout a revolution’ amidst cars beeping down on South William Street in Dublin’s enclave of the absolutist left and the blue haircut?
Absolutely not.
I can’t bring myself to celebrate abortions. I know, what a weirdo.
Anyway, the No side, who make up one-third of the electorate, has been gracious in defeat. Many expressed sadness that they couldn’t do more for the unborn.
For many repealers, unfortunately, it’s been a disgusting gloat-fest.
This was not an easy campaign to get behind. Many of us spent years deliberating, ruminating, going back and forth. It was like ‘Sophie’s Choice’. I’m pro-life, but I really don’t like telling people how to live their lives. The No side voted out of conscience against the introduction of the death penalty to the unborn. Yes voters voted for women to have autonomy over their bodies.
The dichotomy was palpable, but how can you be 100pc for one or the other?
It’s not that women haven’t suffered under the Eighth – there are heartbreaking stories on both sides. I have two cousins who were both told their babies would have Down syndrome and doctors suggested they abort. Both kept their children. Both were fine.
In this age of idealistic social media obsession and positivity memes, the lack of compassion, especially from female journalists, was unnerving. Nell McCafferty was one of the few who displayed some empathy towards the embryo.
That’s not to say the No side didn’t make mistakes. The posters were too much, and the fact that many campaigners were Catholic worked against them.
But then again, as we officially release ourselves from the shackles of the Church in front of a global audience, it’s easy to forget how Irish people let priests control their lives.
Mothers were complicit, not afraid to take the priest’s word over that of their own child, spoiling their sons over their daughters.
But yeah, in hindsight, let’s blame the Church and bang on about how awful old Ireland was.
I sometimes forget I grew up here, too. I’m not Catholic and I never went to a convent school, which is good because I was allowed to think for myself, but like many others I’m not downtrodden, abused and enslaved. From my recollection, the 80s and 90s were amazing in Ireland.
It’s important we remember that just because women who came before us suffered, doesn’t mean we can collectively ride on their coat tails of victimhood. If you haven’t been oppressed, don’t make out you’re oppressed. The women crying outside Dublin Castle in repeal jumpers probably haven’t been to the Magdalene laundries or even had an abortion, so why are they carrying the burden? Victim culture is dangerous for the individual and society.
But not to worry, we’re a great little country, open and modern – at least CNN and other global media outlets think so. And we’re amazing at selling ourselves, even to each other.
“Under the Eighth Amendment, women in crisis have been told you are on your own. Today we say that we want to stand with you,” Health Minister Simon Harris said, after being egged on by the crowd who were donning ‘we fancy Simon Harris’ posters.
Momentum is great for governments. In the ecstatic trance of a Yes vote, people were saying things like, “I trust our Government to legislate on this properly”.
Forgetful much? What about the cover-up surrounding the cervical smear scandal, endemic corruption, domestic abuse, murder and the fact that women are less safe in Ireland than ever before, out of control homelessness, static housing, obscene rents, vulture capitalism, inequitable taxation, gangland crime, expensive childcare, soaring suicide rates, mental health, corporate largesse, the list goes on.
Sure, once the repealers have stopped trolling pro-lifers online in a virtuous trance, and thrown their repeal jumpers in the back of their wardrobes, maybe they’ll see that too. Once the smoke and mirrors are gone, life in Ireland has never been more people-unfriendly.
Trailblazer Ailbhe Smyth said “equality and justice and freedom for people” exists now that women can have abortions, but what if we can’t afford to live here, or afford abortions.
With that in mind, let’s make our next battle about something that really affects us all, like the rental crisis, and we’ll see how much political engagement we get.
"
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sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #1004 on: May 28, 2018, 10:06:27 PM »
Standard Dinny Daily "contrarian" clickbait drivel that says the square root of absolutely nothing.