Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 28225 times)

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #675 on: May 22, 2018, 03:12:48 PM »
This may or may not be true. But the Eighth Amendment now is not the same as when she did not receive proper treatment and a lot of people, including you, are attempting to give the impression that it is.

How is it different?

Maybe point out here:  https://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/DOT/eng/Historical_Information/The_Constitution/Constitution_of_Ireland_-_Bunreacht_na_h%C3%89ireann.html



/Jim.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:18:29 PM by Jim_Murphy_74 »

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #676 on: May 22, 2018, 04:53:15 PM »
But, but, but...he doesn't know what he's talking about, or something.

The author of the investigation into Savita Halappanavar’s death has reiterated his finding that she would still be alive if the Eighth Amendment did not exist.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/professor-savita-would-be-alive-today-if-not-for-8th-470954.html

This may or may not be true. But the Eighth Amendment now is not the same as when she did not receive proper treatment and a lot of people, including you, are attempting to give the impression that it is.
The Eighth Amendment now is exactly the same as it was when it was introduced. The wording has not changed. And it's exactly the same as in 2012.

The Supreme Court has chipped away around the edges over the years at what those who campaigned for it thought they were getting. The X case in 1992 was such an example. Two Fianna Fail governments - that of Albert Reynolds and that of Bertie Ahern, tried to get the X Case judgement that threat of suicide was a grounds for allowing an abortion overturned in referendums in 1992 and 2002 and both times they failed.

The same people who are campaigning to retain the 8th Amendment now all campaigned against legislating for the X Case. But the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act is irrelevant to cases such as the Savita one. Were a Savita case to occur today, doctors and medical staff would face the exact same contraints as they did in 2012. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Let there be no doubt that the concept of the Eighth Amendment in the first place was thought up by the Roman Catholic religious right. It was the Roman Catholic religious right that opportuniscally used political instability in 1981 and 1982 to make a referendum a pre-requisite for support for a minority government held and it was they who tried to shout everybody else down during the campaign of that referendum.

There is a direct lineage between the No campaign in this referendum and every campaign against every progressive measure ths country has introduced in the last 40 years. Every single time they've been wrong. Most of the No campaign would still be campaigning against the legalisation of contraception were it still banned.

Those who campaigned in 1983 knew what they were NOT campaigning for. They were very definitely not campaigning for the right to travel, or that the threat of suicide would be grounds for an abortion.

But the almost certain likelihood of those things arising in future via Supreme Court judgements was widely referenced at the time. In their zealotry, the Roman Catholic religious right ignored these warnings. The irony is that the 8th Amendment would lead to the right to an abortion being specifically enshrined in the constitution, and it'll ultimately lead to comprehensive legislation for abortion - because people have seen that the 8th Amendment is a disaster.

Those who won the battle in 1983 lost the war, and their own zealotry contributed to that loss.




« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 04:55:47 PM by sid waddell »

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #677 on: May 22, 2018, 09:31:37 PM »
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #678 on: May 22, 2018, 09:41:22 PM »
It’s amazing to think how far as a country we’ve come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #679 on: May 22, 2018, 09:59:19 PM »
It’s amazing to think how far as a country we’ve come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

Some counties have come on further than others of course.

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #680 on: May 22, 2018, 10:57:56 PM »
Katie Ascough. Lol.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #681 on: May 22, 2018, 11:28:48 PM »
Katie Ascough. Lol.
She's vile. No wonder she was impeached by UCD. The wonder is how the fook she ever got elected in the first place. A total lightweight too who has nothing more than pre-prepared robo-conservative lines borrowed from evangelical nut jobs in the US. Pat Kenny threw a couple of pretty easy questions at her last month and she tied herself in knots.

Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #682 on: May 22, 2018, 11:36:39 PM »
Katie Ascough. Lol.
She's vile. No wonder she was impeached by UCD. The wonder is how the fook she ever got elected in the first place. A total lightweight too who has nothing more than pre-prepared robo-conservative lines borrowed from evangelical nut jobs in the US. Pat Kenny threw a couple of pretty easy questions at her last month and she tied herself in knots.

I think she is lovely

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #683 on: May 22, 2018, 11:37:30 PM »
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #684 on: May 22, 2018, 11:48:25 PM »
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #685 on: May 22, 2018, 11:56:21 PM »
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
And the funniest thing of all is that Steen has now pulled out of tomorrow's TV3 Pat Kenny debate.

The No campaign have humiliated themselves this evening and it's hilarious.

RTE should have had Mary Higgins debate as scheduled and placed a tub of lard in the spot where Sherlock was due to stand, like Have I Got News For You once did.

The No campaign tried to pull a Ger Loughnane-esque dummy team stunt and instead of pulling the fast one they thought they would, it completely backfired on them.

The disregard for serious public debate they have is frightening.


RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #686 on: May 23, 2018, 02:43:35 AM »
It’s amazing to think how far as a country we’ve come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

WhoooppeeeDooo. Lets celebrate killing children. Aren't we great?



As far as I understand it, legislation as it sits allows for intervention in the case of significant and imminent danger to the mother. The recent fatality was a result of undue delay in taking action. I don't see the need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to rectify this, a clarification from the courts would be sufficient.


I have grave concerns this is a slippery slope to abortion on demand - which I think is a horrible, horrible side-effect of liberalisation (which has in general done untold good) - folks being too quick to put their own rights on a pedestal and damn anyone else it affects.

If (and unfortunately IMO, likely when) the 8th is repealed, who actually thinks the 12 week limit will stay as such for long?
i usse an speelchekor

omaghjoe

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #687 on: May 23, 2018, 06:08:31 AM »
Firstly TBH I think its wrong that a woman in Savita's position are not given an abortion, the sac had burst, there was no possibility that the baby could survive that early.

I'm no legal expert (que the ad hominen) but its a bizarre interpretation of the amendment to say that in her case she should not have been able to terminate the pregnancy.

In fact I would be suspicious that the absolutist interpretation of the amendment was a cynical way to ensure that these cases arise and in do doing so turn a critical mass of public opinion to begrudgingly accepting legislation for unrestricted abortion as the only way to avoid these cases.


Regarding the case of Savita itself... since the sepsis was the likely cause of the miscarriage and was a result of failure of the medical team to identify the cause which was sepsis, it therefore went untreated. The reason it seems is that most of the medical guidelines for miscarriages are piggy backed from other countries that just abort and ask no questions. Ireland needs additional guidelines which have been rectified.

The sepsis was not being treated and this coupled with the continuation of the pregnancy while a fetal heartbeat remained accelerated the condition to the point where it turned it into a fatal condition.

I am open to correction on the case BTW but as far as I can make out these are the events which lead to her death. After this it is all if, buts & maybes


Would Savitta survived if the sepsis had been treated initially with no termination....most likely

Would Savitta have survived if the pregnancy if it had been terminated when the sac ruptured...most likely as it would have allowed the condition to develop more slowly and thereby allow it to be diagnosed before it reached an advanced stage.

I read a bit here and there about her case before now but I must admit the portrayal by the media was somewhat different. Thing is she did die from sepsis, she could and should have been saved if it had been identified when her waters broke and treated at that point... even if she did not have an abortion. An abortion in time could also have saved her (which incidentally I also think she should have got as there was no prospect of the baby surviving).

The medical guidelines have been updated to ensure it never happens again so if a mirror of this case arose the condition would be identified, treatment begun and the pregnancy would be terminated and the mother would have a much higher chance of survival.

Now the way this case has been spun to support the pro choice campaign is completely wrong IMO. To say that removal of the 8th is the only way to save mothers like Savitta is completely incorrect as those changes to the guidelines are already in place.
Going from inadequate medical care and lack of pregnancy guidelines which (is what the report found) caused the death of this woman.....
....to.....
............any woman should have the right to end a pregnancy for any or no reason at a quantum leap jump in logic.

omaghjoe

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #688 on: May 23, 2018, 06:16:44 AM »
The No side caught out trying to bully RTE tonight.

What happened?

Cora Sherlock, having repeatedly challenged Harris to a debate, which was due to be tonight. A few hours before going on air, they tried to strong arm RTE. She was suddenly unavailable and the No campaign said it was Maria Steen or nobody, so RTE called their bluff.
And the funniest thing of all is that Steen has now pulled out of tomorrow's TV3 Pat Kenny debate.

The No campaign have humiliated themselves this evening and it's hilarious.

RTE should have had Mary Higgins debate as scheduled and placed a tub of lard in the spot where Sherlock was due to stand, like Have I Got News For You once did.

The No campaign tried to pull a Ger Loughnane-esque dummy team stunt and instead of pulling the fast one they thought they would, it completely backfired on them.

The disregard for serious public debate they have is frightening.

Do you mean RTE?

I have literally no idea who any of these people are

Who cares who is on a debate, the public have the right to be informed by the best arguments on both sides, does it matter who it is delivered by? The best most informed debaters should be put forward by the respective campaigns and RTE should let them at it

Do RTE care more about getting ratings with a shouting match than actually informing the public? Probably

omaghjoe

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #689 on: May 23, 2018, 06:22:14 AM »
It’s amazing to think how far as a country we’ve come in 15 years from barely rejecting tightening abortion laws to hopefully finally legalising an absolutely basic and vital medical procedure. The new Ireland is a much better place than the one of ten or twenty years ago.

When did extinguishing the life of a unique individual for any or no reason whatsoever become a basic and vital medical procedure?