Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 28421 times)

Franko

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #465 on: May 15, 2018, 05:33:26 PM »
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.


It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.

The whole point of elective abortion is to provide a solution after the fact if someone doesn’t want a baby. You keep talking about it as if it’s a failure of the system when it is literally the system working as intended.

What you seem to want is a world where only those who are raped or their life is in danger can get an abortion. I and a lot more have no interest in that sort of compromise, one that will only lead to women feigning mental illness to get the medical care they require at home.

Solve for the problem that exsists, not the one you want to exsist.

You seem to have missed the point.  Most of the 'No' side don't want the law changed so this this type of solution "exsists" (lol) in this country.

The reason these figures are being pointed out is to highlight the prevalence of this type of approach in countries which have much more relaxed abortion laws and where elective abortions have become very much normalised.

BennyCake

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #466 on: May 15, 2018, 05:43:23 PM »
So basically Syferus, you want abortion on demand for everybody for any reason?

I’m absolutely pro-choice. I believe women should have control over their own bodies and no one has anything to fear or lose from granting them that right.

Your attempt to load the question by calling it ‘abortion on demand’ shows exactly the headspace you’re coming from, however.

Ok, abortion for any reason then. Call it what you will, it amounts to the same thing.

It's interesting to see you criticise my turn of phrase, when you're calling for that above.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #467 on: May 15, 2018, 05:56:20 PM »
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.


It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.


mrdeeds

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #468 on: May 15, 2018, 05:56:30 PM »
Yeah women are entitled to abortion for any reason. Who are you to tell them they can't without any knowlege of their circumstances or emotions?

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #469 on: May 15, 2018, 06:02:35 PM »

See Sid, again as an undecided, I think this is rubbish and I agree with the NO side in the sense that you cannot use extreme cases like this to change the law for 99.9% of other cases. If this is truly the issue then why not ask people to vote on an amendment to the constitution to cover child rape and incest? Again, I am open to any rationale debate and I am genuinely listening but I think this sort of argument is harming the YES argument.

For me, this should be decided on the basis that 99% (or some other big number which I dont have the data on) of people will have an abortion due to non health/mental health/incest/rape issues and the question is whether that is right or wrong.
Bad law makes hard cases.

There is such a thing as "competing rights".

You can't have an equal right to life between a woman and a one hour old zygote. Their rights will compete because the zygote/embryo/foetus is entirely dependent on the woman who is carrying it.

In practice, the right of the unborn in the constitution tramples all over the rights of the woman.

The 8th Amendment is a legal abomination. We don't want to replace it with another legal abomination in the form of unworkable legislation for "exceptions".

I'd argue every case of a crisis pregnancy is a hard case. The No side argues that the law should simply ignore the real "hard cases". The rationale the No side uses could be used to discriminate against any minority you can think of - religious, sexual orientation, transgender, racial. And that sort of rationale is used around the world to discriminate against such minority groups. It's an attitude that must be kept out of Ireland.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 06:11:52 PM by sid waddell »

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #470 on: May 15, 2018, 08:38:53 PM »
The extreme cases are sucking all the air out of the debate

Legislate for what happens in 99% of cases and establish an expert medical panel to decide on the rest.

Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #471 on: May 15, 2018, 08:44:47 PM »
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.


It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.

Link to that fact please.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #472 on: May 15, 2018, 10:34:14 PM »
AZOffally, Itchy and others - this article may be of some use to you. It explains in the words of experts what I failed miserably earlier on this thread to.

http://www.thejournal.ie/lawyers-referendum-4013181-May2018/

The choice in front of us may be a difficult one for some but honestly there's no way we can leave things as they are. Every angle has been examined here and for once a long and detailed process has been followed.....one that even I at times was over the top. I now understand it wasn't just a case of kicking the can down the road....it was really an effort to come to the best (least worst if you like) solution.

Thanks, it certainly goes some way to explain why hard cases cannot be written into law.

Question I am still back to though is whether it I am in agreement with a situation that any woman for any reason can have an abortion up to 12 weeks. Forget the hard cases as they are a small minority.


It depends what you classify as a "hard case". Every person's situation and circumstances are different so I don't know how or where you draw the line. I genuinely believe no one does this flippantly or gleefully. It's not a "sure I can always get an abortion" scenario like the likes of Maria Steen try to disingenuously allege. I thought her "social abortion" comment last night was completely disgusting.

What must be acknowledged though it that for whatever reason, thousands of Irish women every year are either going to the UK or ordering pills online. The vast majority of those cases happen prior to 13 weeks. Is it not better that this reality is dealt with in Ireland, with the support of family and friends and a 72 hour reflection period of counselling than a woman being without those supports?

Well I base it on another "fact" that 1:4 pregnancies in the UK end in abortion. Maybe that fact has been refuted, if it is I never saw it. If true that does tell me that there are a lot of people who are being reckless and using abortion to solve the problem afterwards. Can 1:4 be a result or rape, incest etc.
Which is not a fact. It wasn't even the "fact" the No side were putting out, which was 1 in 5, which is also wrong, as it doesn't include miscarriages, of which there are many - there are no firm statistics on the amount of miscarriages but the NHS estimate it at around 1 in 6 of all pregnancies.

There are no proposals to bring in the same abortion laws as the UK, so the No campaign might as well be comparing apples and kiwis. If you're going to compare, you compare to countries which have 12 weeks.

Also, Ireland is still a socally conservative country by European standards. Therefore other socially conservative countries such as Italy or Poland would be more pertinent comparisons than Britain.

And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal.

Link to that fact please.
No problem. Peter Boylan mentioned this towards the very end of last night's RTE debate before the No side shouted him down.

Quote
Abortion rates are higher in countries where the procedure is illegal and nearly half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe, with the vast majority in developing countries, a new study concludes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned-6292070.html

Quote
Abortion rates go down when countries make it legal: report
Countries with stricter abortion laws have higher abortion rates

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476


I think this statistic is well worth mentioning too.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

Quote
In South Africa, where abortion became legal in 1997, the number of women who died from complications after unsafe terminations in public facilities dropped by 90% in three years.


macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #473 on: May 15, 2018, 10:52:26 PM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #474 on: May 15, 2018, 11:37:57 PM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The big difference is that women will have a safe, secure environment to make the right choice for them, and will be secure in the knowledge that they will finally have access to medical best practice in terms of treatment if they suffer a crisis pregnancy.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.

It was interesting to note that in the debate on tonight's edition of PrimeTime on RTE, the No campaign put up Niamh Ui Bhriain, who will be familiar to anybody who remembers the debate over abortion in Ireland in 1992 as Niamh Nic Mathuna. Ui Bhriain founded Youth Defence, an utterly vile group of extremist headbangers who were set up with the sole aim of shouting down, vilifying and physically intimidating anybody opposed to a 1930s vision of "Holy Catlick Oireland". Youth Defence were and are implacably opposed to contraception, sex education, divorce, gay rights, and anything that doesn't conform to their insane backward agenda. Ui Bhriain still subscribes fully to that 1930s squinting windows vision.

That's before we even get to the links she and Youth Defence forged with neo-Nazis.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/neo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fneo-nazis-affirm-links-with-youth-defence-1.1098966

Ui Bhriain is, and I'm being kind to her, poisonous.

It's a devastating indictment of the No campaign that they're only too happy for her to represent them on national television.




« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 11:41:21 PM by sid waddell »

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #475 on: May 15, 2018, 11:44:08 PM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #476 on: May 15, 2018, 11:48:19 PM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #477 on: May 15, 2018, 11:51:34 PM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Rossfan

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #478 on: May 15, 2018, 11:54:41 PM »
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #479 on: May 16, 2018, 12:09:17 AM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?