Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
42 (20.4%)
Yes but have no vote
70 (34%)
No
40 (19.4%)
No but have no vote
34 (16.5%)
Undecided
20 (9.7%)

Total Members Voted: 206

Voting closes: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 12901 times)

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #435 on: May 15, 2018, 12:43:19 AM »
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

Ronan Mullen had no answer to it. Do you?

A simple Yes/No answer will suffice, as it's a simple Yes/No question.

I'll answer your question. The vast majority of abortions in Ireland will be medical, ie. by taking a pill, inducing miscarriage. Nobody pretends surgical abortions, which are a majority, are pretty, but they are necessary for women suffering crisis pregnancies - and the foetus up to 12 weeks is not a sentient being. It has no feeling whatsoever, not even close.

Oh, and perhaps you could name me a surgical procedure which is "pretty". I bet you can't.

The alternative - denying pregnant women vital cancer treatment and other essential healthcare (ie. denying their human rights), forcing women who have pregnacies involving fatal foetal abnormalities to carry them to term against their will, forcing rape victims to give birth against their will, is a lot more grotesque. And by voting No, you'll support all of those.




sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #436 on: May 15, 2018, 12:57:12 AM »
That debate was an absolutely frightening vista into the true insanity of the No camp.

Their shrieking, hectoring and bullying of Peter Boylan was horrifying, the disdain for knowledge terrifying. They hate him because they canít rebut his arguments and they canít rebut his facts.

Boylan was asked towards the end if a 12 week old foetus was fully grown.

Firstly, what an utter indictment of RTE and the No side that questions like this are being asked. Boylan, perhaps surprised to be asked such a stupid question, responded with the obvious and correct answer. No, a 12 week old foetus is not fully grown. 

His answer was met with furious booing from the No supporters in the audience. Even basic biological facts are booed by the No camp. I almost had to pinch myself that what I was watching and hearing wasnít satire.

As I did when I heard Mattie McGrath's cringeworthy contribution - a man whose level is fixing potholes, and whose shameless pig ignorance is sure to have won over some undecideds for Yes tonight.

Aodhan O'Riordain asked Ronan Mullen what he would do about a 12 year old rape victim who was made pregnant. Mullen had no answer, preferring to go into waffle mode. None of the No camp have an answer to this question.

Maria Steen has the techniques of US robo-conservative. Like all the representatives of the IONA "Instutute", her entire schtick is based around talking over others, interrupting and lying. 

The debate format was an embarrassment to the national broadcaster - it was like watching the Jerry Springer Show. Arguably the most important referendum in the country's history, and it was allowed to be hijacked by yahoos who think debating amounts to who can shout loudest.

Claire Byrne Live is a dreadful programme in general. Tabloid trash every week, but never more than this week. A profoundly fooking depressing spectacle.

It must be a very worrying time to be a woman in Ireland. The lack of empathy from the No side is truly terrifying.

The_geezer

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #437 on: May 15, 2018, 10:25:21 AM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

thebigfella

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #438 on: May 15, 2018, 10:31:42 AM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

And what is that?

Jim_Murphy_74

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #439 on: May 15, 2018, 10:43:14 AM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

What is that? 

All in all I thought it was an appalling program.  RTE would have been better advised to have the two panels.  I was embarrassing for the audience whooping and shouting as if they are at a football match. 

/Jim.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 10:44:52 AM by Jim_Murphy_74 »

Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #440 on: May 15, 2018, 11:23:35 AM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #441 on: May 15, 2018, 11:29:52 AM »
Genuine question, wtf do people think is the difference between "fully grown" "fully formed"? Personally, don't see it as a misrepresentation of anything.

Why is "fully formed" of such import to some people? What does it mean? That it has the general shape and outline of a baby? What about its internal organs etc, do they not matter?
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #442 on: May 15, 2018, 11:32:57 AM »
Genuine question, wtf do people think is the difference between "fully grown" "fully formed"? Personally, don't see it as a misrepresentation of anything.

Why is "fully formed" of such import to some people? What does it mean? That it has the general shape and outline of a baby? What about its internal organs etc, do they not matter?

Well a 1 year old baby is fully formed, it has developed working organs etc. However, a 1 year old baby is obviously not fully grown. Whether it makes any difference is going to depend on your opinion. But there is a clear difference in the two terms as far as I am concerned.

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #443 on: May 15, 2018, 11:37:05 AM »
It's a fully grown one year old baby though, no?

Again (and not specifically asking or targeting you, Itchy), what does "fully formed" mean??
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #444 on: May 15, 2018, 12:53:20 PM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #445 on: May 15, 2018, 01:45:44 PM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.

Christ, youíre trying hard.

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #446 on: May 15, 2018, 01:47:57 PM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.

Im friends with some hardcore Republicans (of the Irish variety) on Facebook who are all very vocal NO supporters. Almost looks like they are trying to give the Shinners a black eye by defeating this. I would be curious to know if other on here have experienced the same thing.

Christ, youíre trying hard.


YYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNN

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #447 on: May 15, 2018, 02:08:49 PM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

And what is that?
An actual expert.

The No side's obstetrician in last night's RTE debate was John Monaghan.

Monaghan works at Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe.

The below was in the news in the last couple of weeks. It would not inspire confidence in Dr. Monaghan.

Quote
Multiple failures identified in report into baby deaths at Galway hospital
Problems with staffing, training and communications contributed to problems, Portiuncula report states

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/multiple-failures-identified-in-report-into-baby-deaths-at-galway-hospital-1.3482993

And neither would this.

Quote
A six-year-old Co Roscommon boy who has had cerebral palsy since birth has been awarded a Ä4m settlement by the High Court.

Through his mother, Mary, Seamus Dwyer brought a case for damages against Portiuncula hospital in Ballinasloe in Co Galway.

The consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist in charge of Seamus's delivery, Dr John Monaghan, had admitted liability.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0324/74461-dwyers/

And neither would this.

https://www.imt.ie/opinion/doctor-showed-himself-up-with-lack-of-knowledge-28-04-2011/

I think it may well be Dr. Monaghan who needs to "go back to school".

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #448 on: May 15, 2018, 02:18:27 PM »
He was asked if the foetus was 'fully formed' not if it was fully grown! Boylan was exposed last night for what he truly is.

I despair over both sides of this debate. As of yet I am undecided. I thought neither side were very impressive yesterday. An example of the Yes side being poor in debate is Sid who just mis-represented the question asked  (fully formed vrs fully grown) and then pitied the poor doctor who couldnt believe he was asked such a stupid question. He forgot to mention a 2nd doctor on the panel took a different view to the other one. I am not a doctor so I rely on doctors for medical facts and when they cannot agree where does that leave  the ordinary punter?

The roaring and shouting from the No side was pathetic as was the seething "they are all lying" man. I felt sorry for Claire Byrne, who I think is quote good, as she struggled to contain things. I though Mary Lou was the best on the night. Still a lot to ponder.
Peter Boylan was dead right. It's a preposterous notion to say a foetus is fully formed at 12 weeks. Have you ever heard of a viable 12 week old foetus?

In any country in Europe, in any country in the world, you can find obstetricians who are against access to safe, legal abortion.

But they are not guided in this by best medical practice. They are guided by their own personal version of morality, which is usually heavily influenced by religion.

For an obstetrician to go further and call for the retention of the 8th Amendment is not just saying that they are against abortion - it is saying that a particular, narrow version of morality should be imposed on everybody else.

Anybody guided by such is not putting the patient first.

The vst majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives, nurses and GPs favour the abolition of the 8th Amendment. It says a lot that those at the coalface are the ones who favour abolition of the 8th Amendment in the heaviest numbers of any field in society.

That's because they have the most knowledge of what the 8th Amendment does.



sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #449 on: May 15, 2018, 02:28:47 PM »
Nobody on the No side can answer the question of whether they believe a 12 year girl made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

It's the question they're desperate to avoid.

But one of them once let their guard down about their real views.

It was John McGuirk, spokesman for "Save The 8th".

And his real views are chilling.