Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
43 (20.6%)
Yes but have no vote
70 (33.5%)
No
40 (19.1%)
No but have no vote
36 (17.2%)
Undecided
20 (9.6%)

Total Members Voted: 209

Voting closes: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 13313 times)

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #480 on: May 16, 2018, 12:10:42 AM »
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.
Hmm...articulate!


Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #481 on: May 16, 2018, 12:24:25 AM »
That Sid needs to go out for a bit of fresh air occasionally.
Get a fkn life buicín.

Mind your manners a little.

Premier Emperor

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #482 on: May 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM »
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?
This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #483 on: May 16, 2018, 12:41:38 AM »
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Attempting to deflect won't get you anywhere.

I answered your question on page 30 of this thread comprehensively.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you? I've bolded it for your convenience.


The Boy Wonder

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #484 on: May 16, 2018, 01:03:48 AM »
Shakespeare said “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose” so I’ll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years’ experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women’s lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women’s lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as “evidence” three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I’m in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be “progressive” given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #485 on: May 16, 2018, 01:36:34 AM »
Shakespeare said “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose” so I’ll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years’ experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women’s lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women’s lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as “evidence” three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I’m in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be “progressive” given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.
Can you tell me why the vast majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives and GPs favour repeal?

Why do those with the most knowledge favour repeal in the heaviest numbers?

Anybody can pick out individuals. You can go to any country which has access to safe, legal abortion and find individual obstetricians who believe that their particular narrow moral view should be imposed on others.

Picking out individuals whose view is a minority and implying that their view is widespread when it's actually a fringe view is something the right do constantly. Climate change is a classic example.

Donald Trump refers to individual immigrants in the US who have committed a crime and uses these individual cases to demonise immigrants in general as criminals.

Picking out individual obstetricians who are of a very much minority view is using that same tactic to pretend they are much more numerous in number than they are in reality.

The No side has constantly told us how "hard cases" should be ignored.

I guess you could call these individuals in the medical profession who favour retention of the 8th Amendment "hard cases". They are very much a minority, and for the most part driven by their religious views, not by medical best practice and not by the needs of the patient.

Ultimately, your view comes down to this - you believe your narrow version of morality should be imposed on everybody else. That's it, and that's the case for the entire No side.

The problem with the morality argument is, well, your version of morality is very different to mine and to most people's. And the No side hasn't got facts to back up its position whereas the Yes side comprehensively has.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to force rape victims to carry a pregancy to term and ultimately force them to give birth against their will.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to deny pregnant women cancer treatment which if not given, could end up costing them their lives, as it did with Michelle Harte.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to force women to carry a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality to term.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral that Savita Halppanavar could not obtain the abortion which would have saved her life because the constitution wouldn't allow it.

I beleve it's thoroughly immoral that a pregnant woman should be forced to endure a serious risk to her health with no recourse to treatment because of the constitution.

I believe it's thoroughly immoral to abandon Irish women who self administer abortion, which, should it go wrong, means they are placed in a nightmarish dilemma between presenting at a hospital and risking a 14 year prison sentence, and not seeking medical help with possible grave consequences for their health.

And cowardly.

In terms of respect, I've just been told by a No supporting poster to "get a fuckin' life".

Respect, how are ya.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:40:19 AM by sid waddell »

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #486 on: May 16, 2018, 03:51:42 AM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE “debate”......Yes side had their arses handed to them

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #487 on: May 16, 2018, 06:33:19 AM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE “debate”......Yes side had their arses handed to them

Still pretending to be a Yes voter?

Premier Emperor

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #488 on: May 16, 2018, 06:58:33 AM »
Maria Steen giving a masterclass in swatting away the Yes mob.
A great point from the audience too. If people actually witnessed what happened during an abortion, they wouldn't be voting for it.
Sid and Syferus will never address this. Instead they'll dress it up in cuddly language like 'compassion' and 'healthcare'.
Seeing as you've clearly decided to dip your toes into the water of this debate over the couple of days or so, what do you plan to do about 12 year old rape victims who are made pregnant?

Do you plan to force them to carry the pregnancy to term against their will?

This is the tactic, try and use the extreme edge cases to open the floodgates.

It's like a Ferrari drivers club campaigning to have all speed limits and speed bumps removed from our roads because they claim they may potentially slow down an ambulance if there was ever an emergency.

I have way more respect for people like Ruth Coppinger who at least admit they want an abortion free for all, instead of hiding behind obscure scenarios.
Attempting to deflect won't get you anywhere.

I answered your question on page 30 of this thread comprehensively.

Any chance you could answer the question I asked you? I've bolded it for your convenience.
Don't be trying to fake concern for the mythical 12 year old. You'd care for her about as much as you do for the unborn child, but if she helps deliver you abortion
I'd favour the person being given counselling and support and giving the child up for for adoption.
There are thousands of parents on the adoption waiting lists while thousands of healthy babies get destroyed every year. The vast majority of them perfectly healthy.

Premier Emperor

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #489 on: May 16, 2018, 07:09:03 AM »
Shakespeare said “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose” so I’ll join the copy & paste brigade:

"Irish Independent
14 May 2018
I am a practising consultant obstetrician in the Rotunda Hospital, now with 30 years’ experience, and have previously served as Dean of Professional Competence in the Royal College of Physicians.
I have already put on record my concern regarding the false allegation that doctors are prevented from treating seriously ill women in pregnancy. I know that concern about this false allegation is shared by many in my profession.
I regret that I now feel obliged to add to these comments.
The risk to women’s lives does not have to be imminent for doctors to take all necessary steps to protect women’s lives and health. The current law and official guidelines are very clear in this regard.
I have never felt limited in my care of patients with sepsis, fulminating blood pressure, cancer, inevitable pregnancy loss, complex maternal illness, etc, when pregnancy was pre-viable.
Regarding the assertion that women have died because of the Eighth Amendment, Dr Peter Boylan cites as “evidence” three cases. On closer examination, however, none of these supports his contention.
The medical needs of the mother do not require removal of the Eighth Amendment.
I regret that there appears to be a campaign strategy to create a contrary impression in the minds of the public.
As persons trusted by the public to give expert advice and opinion, doctors should avoid giving inaccurate or misleading information whether to advance personal, political or philosophical views or not.
Mary Holohan FRCOG, FRCPI
Dublin 1"


It is extremely difficult to have a civil debate on this topic such are the polar opposite positions of those firmly in either camp. I’m in the NO camp and I explained my position previously - I am a conscientious objector to abortion as a choice where there are NO valid reasons for medical intervention to end a pregnancy and I believe that the 8th Amendment is a hugely important and positive element of our constitution. By voting NO I am simply using the democratic process to give my opinion on the ethos that I would wish for in our society. I do respect the opinions of those who will vote YES but I do not share their views and beliefs. I do not accept that a successful YES vote would be “progressive” given the inevitable normalisation over time of abortion on demand as has happened in UK, US etc.

The fact that our citizens travel to UK for abortions or purchase abortion pills online can never be used as valid reasons for legalising abortion in this country. We must cherish our independence and make the best decisions as we see fit for the common good of our citizens irrespective of the norms in other countries.

Given how each side of this debate is disrespecting each other at the moment it does not bode well for the post-referendum scenario irrespective of the outcome.
Can you tell me why the vast majority of obstetricians, gynaecologists, midwives and GPs favour repeal?

Why do those with the most knowledge favour repeal in the heaviest numbers?
Must dive in and start brow beating someone who doesn't agree with me. You're as good as recruiting sergeant for a No vote as Peter Boylan.

Where's you evidence of above? How many of the 18,000 have come out in favour of repealing?

Taylor

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #490 on: May 16, 2018, 08:14:40 AM »
While I cannot vote, if I was in any way undecided listening to the Last Word yesterday evening I would know exactly where my vote lies now.

Why the no vote would have such an obnoxious ignorant woman involved in any campaign is mystifying

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #491 on: May 16, 2018, 08:58:35 AM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?

magpie seanie

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #492 on: May 16, 2018, 09:13:09 AM »
Are you inferring from that Sid that the rate of abortion in Ireland will go DOWN if there's a Yes vote? If you are, I honestly find that hard to believe. If that's not what your suggesting then it seems disingenuous to mention the point
I didn't infer that.

Should the proposed legislation be introduced, I would expect there to be a modest rise initially, then a falling back over the medium term, possibly, in time, even falling back to below the current rate. Abortion rates everywhere in Europe are declining because contraception is more widely avaliable and sex education is better.

The constant references to the UK are absolute scaremongering of the worst and highest order.


If that's not what you were inferring, what's the point of mentioning it?

I agree that comparisons with the UK are of little value since it's a different law in place and a different culture. Your own point is of a similar nature however.
Because it demonstrates that when access to safe, legal abortion is introduced, health outcomes for women improve, often dramatically so.

As they will here if it's introduced.

But health outcomes for women wasn't the point you made:

"And a key fact: Abortion rates in countries where abortion is banned or highly restricted have a higher abortion rate than countries where it is safe and legal."

Worldwide, they do.

Are you disputing this?

I'm not.

I asked if you were inferring if this would be the case in Ireland and you said you weren't. This being the case, what's the value in mentioning it?


This all came from the false "1 in 5" assertion and other links to the UK (where a far more liberal regime than is proposed for here exists). I think the facts presented go a long way to refuting the scaremongering of the No side that abortion rates will sky rocket here if the proposed new regime is introduced.

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #493 on: May 16, 2018, 10:02:14 AM »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cBepD4Mv9zw&feature=youtu.be


The RTE “debate”......Yes side had their arses handed to them

Still pretending to be a Yes voter?

If I had a vote I would be voting yes. Who picked the people who represented the Yes side......jesus they were terrible.....,they walked into every single ambush and trap that was laid for them, and kept referring back to cases that probably account for %< 1% of all terminations

If I was an undecided voter, the Yes side was very unconvincing in their arguments


trueblue1234

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #494 on: May 16, 2018, 10:40:48 AM »
While I cannot vote, if I was in any way undecided listening to the Last Word yesterday evening I would know exactly where my vote lies now.

Why the no vote would have such an obnoxious ignorant woman involved in any campaign is mystifying

Would it not be a case that she was asked on the show as a representative of the no side (And no doubt making better viewing by being such a pr!ick)? I doubt there was a general consensus that she was best positioned to represent the entire no side, or at least you would have hoped not. Definitely the extreme elements of the no side are not having the best effect and I'd say are pushing people towards a yes vote.

Just with regards to the UK as mentioned earlier. Was wondering how many yes voters would agree with a similar legislation to the UK if it was on offer? Would that be the hope down the line? This isn't an attempt to catch you out on a thin edge of the wedge scenario, I'd genuinely be interested to see how many would welcome even more relaxed legislation or would most be happy that this caters for enough. 
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit