Arlene's bigotry shines through

[BennyCake]

Mike Nesbitt was a beacon of light in the unionist world and tried to break away from the entrenched attitudes. And look what happened him.

No he didn't really, but that was because he was constrained. Unionists can legitimately expose a UK as we can a UI. I'd like to think that any future UI would give a place to loyalist icons and flags and identity in a way denied to the nationalist community at present.

I think we need to get away from flags. We should encourage and foster identity but discourage " in your face" territory marking.

Funny you chose that word 

[BennyCake]

Mike Nesbitt was a beacon of light in the unionist world and tried to break away from the entrenched attitudes. And look what happened him.

No he didn't really, but that was because he was constrained. Unionists can legitimately expose a UK as we can a UI. I'd like to think that any future UI would give a place to loyalist icons and flags and identity in a way denied to the nationalist community at present.

Is that what it's all about though? Most nationalists in the North don't need a icon or flag to declare what or who they are. If you have to resort to that, well that explains a lot about you.

its about mutual respect

Yes, but you're never going to achieve that with flegs and icons.

[red hander]

Arlene is a bizarre character and a bizarre choice as unionist leader.
Her background has shaped her , and as she has been a victim, she at least deserves empathy and respect for her right to articulate her point of view.
Victims usually fall into 3 categories:
1. The Alan McBride type , who are the true heroes of the conflict and an inspiration to us all, determined to make sure they offer their loss to the benefit of all.
2. Those that cope in silence and remain under the radar as they try to cope with their loss , and get on with their lives( many struggle)
3. Those who remain bitter and resentful ( and we can all understand that) and can't get past their loss, and probably feel a sense of responsibility not to let down those that have passed or were injured.

Arlene clearly falls into the 3rd category. Those entrenched in that bitterness, on both sides , are the biggest barrier to progress. Though I have complete empathy for their position, I feel they need to be respected but ultimately sidelined, so that we can rebuild a society which would be the ultimate legacy to all who have suffered and/or died.

Arlene's upbringing , including the suffering of herself and family and friends. Appears to have left her very bitter, and she makes minimal attempts to hide that. She was dwarfed in the presence of Martin McGuinness in terms of reconciliation and respect.
I think we can over analyse her , but the mask well and truly slipped , when Kielty probed her thoughts for the future. The so-called "leader of unionism" would be on the first boat out of here, once unionism loses its majority. So in the other words , she shows complete disregard and disdain for the vast majority of those who have paid her wages and brought her to the ultimate office , as she waves them goodbye to move to a Britain , where ironically she'd be like a fish out of water.
These sentiments betray an over-riding anti-Irishness from her. We all know she appears to have absolutely no rapport with more than  50% of the whole community , but it's incredible that she also has no respect or care for her own community, and future generations of those here that perceive themselves British .
Incidentally, if and when she goes back to her day job as a solicitor, she'll struggle with credibility , as she comes across as someone for whom truth economy and reality denial is second nature.

Oh to see a fresh and magnanimous leader of unionism emerge , that actually see further than the next 10years . Unfortunately, I don't think cultural unionism
Lends itself to such an approach.
I think the only solution short-medium term, is a consensus around equality and respect , with the national constitutional question becoming a side issue, and eventually sorting itself out.
That respect majority needs to expose and confront anyone who challenges normal civilised behaviour, eg orangeism, cultural bullying etc

if she wants to be a bitter bigot that's her call but to be in a position of leadership is appalling. What hope is there?

There is hope, and that's a new , safe , secure , non threatening "respect" majority.
Obviously , I'd love to see a United ireland , but I've lived under British rule all my life and I can live it with it for a few more years, if it means that an All island solution is a peaceful one. That might mean a further 15-20 years of building a society on both sides of the border which embraces respect and equality. As we all know the six counties has never worked , probably because it was established on crudely sectarian lines, manufacturing a majority which has only last 100 years. Regarding "NI", nationalists/republicans might be best being magnanimous in the short term and regardless of the challenges of power sharing , get on with running the statelet in the short term to save jobs, housing, education etc.
Does the GFA need to be revisited?
I think so,
It worked at the time and the mood and work of the 90s gave us 25 years of peace.
However like "NI" it was manufactured on sectarian lines, including perceived nationalist  And Unionist blocs, petition of concern etc. However what has it delivered in reality , in terms of jobs , investment , health , education,  equality? The Irish language is a perfect example , that would have been signed sealed delivered in a short time in any normal society ( eg Wales, Scotland) but here it's been allowed to be blocked on sectarian lines.
In reality there isn't a hair's breadth between the vast majority of SF SDLP alliance , greens , and even UUP supporters in many issues . As has always been the case , this statelet , governance wise has been dictated by a small portion of the population who are essentially anti-Irish racists. The GFA as it stands will ingrain that bigotry for the foreseeable future. Even if SF become the largest party they will still have to dance to the DUP tune.
Political reality won't allow a new party to emerge, so short term change will only occur if DUP is overtaken by UUP , alliance . The Only way to undermine the DUP is to unite under an equality/respect banner and expose their bigotry. Nationalists/republicans will have to be magnanimous and generous to a fault, to gain respect of the middle ground unionists, and isolate the DUP. Many unionists in my area are embarrassed by the DUP, we just need to extend that disdain for the DUP in the unionist heartlands. The DUP support will wain as voters realise they have delivered nothing but conflict . As time passes attitudes will hopefully soften , DUP relative vote numbers will decrease due to age demographics and emigration , and future generations will be further away from conflict and less bitter.  In 20 years time we'll be a different place anyway. So now we need to play the long game. Concentrate on respect, jobs,  education , health, the things that are important to everybody .
And this is the key thing, "Middle of the roaders " especially SDLP voters  need to wise up to the lazy analysis that SF and DUP are two sides of the same coin . That's the convenient lie that perpetuates this conflict. SF have a history that doesn't sit easy with many, but so did FF, FG etc. SF are close to being the largest party in the North, they promote a respect agenda . They're no angels and certainly should be challenged, but blind antagonism towards them and equating them to the DUP, is letting the DUP dinosaurs off the hook and keeping us where we are.
Let's foster an equality and respect agenda that 80% of the population will buy in to, and grow a society at peace with itself. The national  question will sort itself out through a development of a culture of mutual respect , over a generation or more. We'll get there!

Good post.

One point.......a major reason unionists will never vote for SF or even consider it is because SF constantly push a UI agenda when the vast vast majority of them dont want it.
Until SF drop this everything else they say is ignored by the other side

Bizarre  So republicans should just drop the cornerstone of their existence because their political enemies don't like it? Jesus wept. Expect this sort of narrative to build up speed over the next few years from, particularly, west Brit commentators such as RDE, O Hanlon and Harris... there's been some articles already basically saying 'Stop talking about a united Ireland as it could destabilise the situation/upset unionists' ... in other words, dump your principles because the other side don't agree with them. And these same c***ts are always hammering on about 'democracy'

[6th sam]

Mike Nesbitt was a beacon of light in the unionist world and tried to break away from the entrenched attitudes. And look what happened him.

No he didn't really, but that was because he was constrained. Unionists can legitimately expose a UK as we can a UI. I'd like to think that any future UI would give a place to loyalist icons and flags and identity in a way denied to the nationalist community at present.

Is that what it's all about though? Most nationalists in the North don't need a icon or flag to declare what or who they are. If you have to resort to that, well that explains a lot about you.

its about mutual respect

Respect and equality go hand in hand. I think part of the problem is when we describe culture here , we lump obviously antagonistic coattrailing ( flags/emblems/marches ) in with Seamus Heaney and CS Lewis. Let's embrace and respect genuine culture , and call out antagonistic territory marking for what it is.

[6th sam]

Arlene is a bizarre character and a bizarre choice as unionist leader.
Her background has shaped her , and as she has been a victim, she at least deserves empathy and respect for her right to articulate her point of view.
Victims usually fall into 3 categories:
1. The Alan McBride type , who are the true heroes of the conflict and an inspiration to us all, determined to make sure they offer their loss to the benefit of all.
2. Those that cope in silence and remain under the radar as they try to cope with their loss , and get on with their lives( many struggle)
3. Those who remain bitter and resentful ( and we can all understand that) and can't get past their loss, and probably feel a sense of responsibility not to let down those that have passed or were injured.

Arlene clearly falls into the 3rd category. Those entrenched in that bitterness, on both sides , are the biggest barrier to progress. Though I have complete empathy for their position, I feel they need to be respected but ultimately sidelined, so that we can rebuild a society which would be the ultimate legacy to all who have suffered and/or died.

Arlene's upbringing , including the suffering of herself and family and friends. Appears to have left her very bitter, and she makes minimal attempts to hide that. She was dwarfed in the presence of Martin McGuinness in terms of reconciliation and respect.
I think we can over analyse her , but the mask well and truly slipped , when Kielty probed her thoughts for the future. The so-called "leader of unionism" would be on the first boat out of here, once unionism loses its majority. So in the other words , she shows complete disregard and disdain for the vast majority of those who have paid her wages and brought her to the ultimate office , as she waves them goodbye to move to a Britain , where ironically she'd be like a fish out of water.
These sentiments betray an over-riding anti-Irishness from her. We all know she appears to have absolutely no rapport with more than  50% of the whole community , but it's incredible that she also has no respect or care for her own community, and future generations of those here that perceive themselves British .
Incidentally, if and when she goes back to her day job as a solicitor, she'll struggle with credibility , as she comes across as someone for whom truth economy and reality denial is second nature.

Oh to see a fresh and magnanimous leader of unionism emerge , that actually see further than the next 10years . Unfortunately, I don't think cultural unionism
Lends itself to such an approach.
I think the only solution short-medium term, is a consensus around equality and respect , with the national constitutional question becoming a side issue, and eventually sorting itself out.
That respect majority needs to expose and confront anyone who challenges normal civilised behaviour, eg orangeism, cultural bullying etc

if she wants to be a bitter bigot that's her call but to be in a position of leadership is appalling. What hope is there?

There is hope, and that's a new , safe , secure , non threatening "respect" majority.
Obviously , I'd love to see a United ireland , but I've lived under British rule all my life and I can live it with it for a few more years, if it means that an All island solution is a peaceful one. That might mean a further 15-20 years of building a society on both sides of the border which embraces respect and equality. As we all know the six counties has never worked , probably because it was established on crudely sectarian lines, manufacturing a majority which has only last 100 years. Regarding "NI", nationalists/republicans might be best being magnanimous in the short term and regardless of the challenges of power sharing , get on with running the statelet in the short term to save jobs, housing, education etc.
Does the GFA need to be revisited?
I think so,
It worked at the time and the mood and work of the 90s gave us 25 years of peace.
However like "NI" it was manufactured on sectarian lines, including perceived nationalist  And Unionist blocs, petition of concern etc. However what has it delivered in reality , in terms of jobs , investment , health , education,  equality? The Irish language is a perfect example , that would have been signed sealed delivered in a short time in any normal society ( eg Wales, Scotland) but here it's been allowed to be blocked on sectarian lines.
In reality there isn't a hair's breadth between the vast majority of SF SDLP alliance , greens , and even UUP supporters in many issues . As has always been the case , this statelet , governance wise has been dictated by a small portion of the population who are essentially anti-Irish racists. The GFA as it stands will ingrain that bigotry for the foreseeable future. Even if SF become the largest party they will still have to dance to the DUP tune.
Political reality won't allow a new party to emerge, so short term change will only occur if DUP is overtaken by UUP , alliance . The Only way to undermine the DUP is to unite under an equality/respect banner and expose their bigotry. Nationalists/republicans will have to be magnanimous and generous to a fault, to gain respect of the middle ground unionists, and isolate the DUP. Many unionists in my area are embarrassed by the DUP, we just need to extend that disdain for the DUP in the unionist heartlands. The DUP support will wain as voters realise they have delivered nothing but conflict . As time passes attitudes will hopefully soften , DUP relative vote numbers will decrease due to age demographics and emigration , and future generations will be further away from conflict and less bitter.  In 20 years time we'll be a different place anyway. So now we need to play the long game. Concentrate on respect, jobs,  education , health, the things that are important to everybody .
And this is the key thing, "Middle of the roaders " especially SDLP voters  need to wise up to the lazy analysis that SF and DUP are two sides of the same coin . That's the convenient lie that perpetuates this conflict. SF have a history that doesn't sit easy with many, but so did FF, FG etc. SF are close to being the largest party in the North, they promote a respect agenda . They're no angels and certainly should be challenged, but blind antagonism towards them and equating them to the DUP, is letting the DUP dinosaurs off the hook and keeping us where we are.
Let's foster an equality and respect agenda that 80% of the population will buy in to, and grow a society at peace with itself. The national  question will sort itself out through a development of a culture of mutual respect , over a generation or more. We'll get there!

Good post.

One point.......a major reason unionists will never vote for SF or even consider it is because SF constantly push a UI agenda when the vast vast majority of them dont want it.
Until SF drop this everything else they say is ignored by the other side

Bizarre  So republicans should just drop the cornerstone of their existence because their political enemies don't like it? Jesus wept. Expect this sort of narrative to build up speed over the next few years from, particularly, west Brit commentators such as RDE, O Hanlon and Harris... there's been some articles already basically saying 'Stop talking about a united Ireland as it could destabilise the situation/upset unionists' ... in other words, dump your principles because the other side don't agree with them. And these same c***ts are always hammering on about 'democracy'

This is about achieving a UNITED ireland. That's only achievable with work, empathy and respect. Celebrating a victory and rubbing unionists nose in it, is not republicanism to me. We've been on the receiving end of that nonsense since 1690. Let's show as a nation we're different . I suspect this view would be welcomed  by 90% of people in a new Ireland, there's your consensus.

[AQMP]

Last question to Foster before she finishes her evidence (until Sept).

David Scoffield QC:  To what extent does the buck stop with you?

Foster:  I can't be blamed for other people's mistakes.

She really has the mind of a child

[red hander]

Arlene is a bizarre character and a bizarre choice as unionist leader.
Her background has shaped her , and as she has been a victim, she at least deserves empathy and respect for her right to articulate her point of view.
Victims usually fall into 3 categories:
1. The Alan McBride type , who are the true heroes of the conflict and an inspiration to us all, determined to make sure they offer their loss to the benefit of all.
2. Those that cope in silence and remain under the radar as they try to cope with their loss , and get on with their lives( many struggle)
3. Those who remain bitter and resentful ( and we can all understand that) and can't get past their loss, and probably feel a sense of responsibility not to let down those that have passed or were injured.

Arlene clearly falls into the 3rd category. Those entrenched in that bitterness, on both sides , are the biggest barrier to progress. Though I have complete empathy for their position, I feel they need to be respected but ultimately sidelined, so that we can rebuild a society which would be the ultimate legacy to all who have suffered and/or died.

Arlene's upbringing , including the suffering of herself and family and friends. Appears to have left her very bitter, and she makes minimal attempts to hide that. She was dwarfed in the presence of Martin McGuinness in terms of reconciliation and respect.
I think we can over analyse her , but the mask well and truly slipped , when Kielty probed her thoughts for the future. The so-called "leader of unionism" would be on the first boat out of here, once unionism loses its majority. So in the other words , she shows complete disregard and disdain for the vast majority of those who have paid her wages and brought her to the ultimate office , as she waves them goodbye to move to a Britain , where ironically she'd be like a fish out of water.
These sentiments betray an over-riding anti-Irishness from her. We all know she appears to have absolutely no rapport with more than  50% of the whole community , but it's incredible that she also has no respect or care for her own community, and future generations of those here that perceive themselves British .
Incidentally, if and when she goes back to her day job as a solicitor, she'll struggle with credibility , as she comes across as someone for whom truth economy and reality denial is second nature.

Oh to see a fresh and magnanimous leader of unionism emerge , that actually see further than the next 10years . Unfortunately, I don't think cultural unionism
Lends itself to such an approach.
I think the only solution short-medium term, is a consensus around equality and respect , with the national constitutional question becoming a side issue, and eventually sorting itself out.
That respect majority needs to expose and confront anyone who challenges normal civilised behaviour, eg orangeism, cultural bullying etc

if she wants to be a bitter bigot that's her call but to be in a position of leadership is appalling. What hope is there?

There is hope, and that's a new , safe , secure , non threatening "respect" majority.
Obviously , I'd love to see a United ireland , but I've lived under British rule all my life and I can live it with it for a few more years, if it means that an All island solution is a peaceful one. That might mean a further 15-20 years of building a society on both sides of the border which embraces respect and equality. As we all know the six counties has never worked , probably because it was established on crudely sectarian lines, manufacturing a majority which has only last 100 years. Regarding "NI", nationalists/republicans might be best being magnanimous in the short term and regardless of the challenges of power sharing , get on with running the statelet in the short term to save jobs, housing, education etc.
Does the GFA need to be revisited?
I think so,
It worked at the time and the mood and work of the 90s gave us 25 years of peace.
However like "NI" it was manufactured on sectarian lines, including perceived nationalist  And Unionist blocs, petition of concern etc. However what has it delivered in reality , in terms of jobs , investment , health , education,  equality? The Irish language is a perfect example , that would have been signed sealed delivered in a short time in any normal society ( eg Wales, Scotland) but here it's been allowed to be blocked on sectarian lines.
In reality there isn't a hair's breadth between the vast majority of SF SDLP alliance , greens , and even UUP supporters in many issues . As has always been the case , this statelet , governance wise has been dictated by a small portion of the population who are essentially anti-Irish racists. The GFA as it stands will ingrain that bigotry for the foreseeable future. Even if SF become the largest party they will still have to dance to the DUP tune.
Political reality won't allow a new party to emerge, so short term change will only occur if DUP is overtaken by UUP , alliance . The Only way to undermine the DUP is to unite under an equality/respect banner and expose their bigotry. Nationalists/republicans will have to be magnanimous and generous to a fault, to gain respect of the middle ground unionists, and isolate the DUP. Many unionists in my area are embarrassed by the DUP, we just need to extend that disdain for the DUP in the unionist heartlands. The DUP support will wain as voters realise they have delivered nothing but conflict . As time passes attitudes will hopefully soften , DUP relative vote numbers will decrease due to age demographics and emigration , and future generations will be further away from conflict and less bitter.  In 20 years time we'll be a different place anyway. So now we need to play the long game. Concentrate on respect, jobs,  education , health, the things that are important to everybody .
And this is the key thing, "Middle of the roaders " especially SDLP voters  need to wise up to the lazy analysis that SF and DUP are two sides of the same coin . That's the convenient lie that perpetuates this conflict. SF have a history that doesn't sit easy with many, but so did FF, FG etc. SF are close to being the largest party in the North, they promote a respect agenda . They're no angels and certainly should be challenged, but blind antagonism towards them and equating them to the DUP, is letting the DUP dinosaurs off the hook and keeping us where we are.
Let's foster an equality and respect agenda that 80% of the population will buy in to, and grow a society at peace with itself. The national  question will sort itself out through a development of a culture of mutual respect , over a generation or more. We'll get there!

Good post.

One point.......a major reason unionists will never vote for SF or even consider it is because SF constantly push a UI agenda when the vast vast majority of them dont want it.
Until SF drop this everything else they say is ignored by the other side

Bizarre  So republicans should just drop the cornerstone of their existence because their political enemies don't like it? Jesus wept. Expect this sort of narrative to build up speed over the next few years from, particularly, west Brit commentators such as RDE, O Hanlon and Harris... there's been some articles already basically saying 'Stop talking about a united Ireland as it could destabilise the situation/upset unionists' ... in other words, dump your principles because the other side don't agree with them. And these same c***ts are always hammering on about 'democracy'

This is about achieving a UNITED ireland. That's only achievable with work, empathy and respect. Celebrating a victory and rubbing unionists nose in it, is not republicanism to me. We've been on the receiving end of that nonsense since 1690. Let's show as a nation we're different . I suspect this view would be welcomed  by 90% of people in a new Ireland, there's your consensus.

Where have I suggested this? I admire your optimism, though, over achieving reunification through 'work, empathy and respect', I really do.

[Rossfan]

How else will it be achieved?

[Taylor]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

[Therealdonald]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

Why should we though? They are making themselves look as stupid as is humanly possible. Snarlene's comments at that trial are unbelievable. I'd hang tight, no Stormont until the next General Election, get Corbyn election and really put the buck to the bray.

[JPGJOHNNYG]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

A UI has been on the back burner since the GFA and where did that get nationalism. Its only Brexit that has brought it back on the table

[6th sam]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

Why should we though? They are making themselves look as stupid as is humanly possible. Snarlene's comments at that trial are unbelievable. I'd hang tight, no Stormont until the next General Election, get Corbyn election and really put the buck to the bray.

Those circumstances would change the dynamic , but the fact remains getting an all island settlement is inevitable within the next 25 years. Just don't want the lead up and the outcome to be marred by more conflict and more lost lives. If we show a magnanimity when we're majority, that we were never afforded ourselves, then we are more likely to have a thriving nation

[HiMucker]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

Why should we though? They are making themselves look as stupid as is humanly possible. Snarlene's comments at that trial are unbelievable. I'd hang tight, no Stormont until the next General Election, get Corbyn election and really put the buck to the bray.

Those circumstances would change the dynamic , but the fact remains getting an all island settlement is inevitable within the next 25 years. Just don't want the lead up and the outcome to be marred by more conflict and more lost lives. If we show a magnanimity when we're majority, that we were never afforded ourselves, then we are more likely to have a thriving nation

I really don't think that will be an issue.  You just have to look at the difference between nationalist controlled councils and unionist controlled ones to see that.

[BennyCake]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

Because that would mean actually doing something, and SF have nothing to offer themselves. Both sides deflect attention from their useless selves, by attacking the other.

[tiempo]

I want a UI as much as the next man however the current process is just going to to make them dig their heels in more.

How about trying a different tactic and putting a UI on sideburner and making the Unionists look like the petty fools they are

Because that would mean actually doing something, and SF have nothing to offer themselves. Both sides deflect attention from their useless selves, by attacking the other.

Aye sheer SF incompetence got them this far