Author Topic: The ulster rugby trial  (Read 154053 times)

Tony Baloney

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3660 on: April 05, 2018, 04:31:39 PM »
Get a hobby Sid.

Orchard park

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3661 on: April 05, 2018, 04:33:47 PM »
Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

First off, what makes you an authority of what "the real world" is? Secondly, as I've mentioned many times already, if such a thing can be called a culture then there are plenty of women that perpatrate it as well as men.

I think you'll find that in the real world, the concept of consent is a big deal. Read the stats again. There are plenty of Irish people, primarily men, because let's face it, hordes of women are not going around raping men, who have a problem with this.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

And once again you seek to deligitimse opposition to your point by trying to associate it with a bunch of absolute arseholes and to take it to extreme absurdities. For example...

"The Nazis banned smoking on public transport. Therefore anyone who supports banning smoking on public transport is a Nazi".

This type of intellectual dishonesty is something that Glenn Beck has been notorious in using. Do you really want to be compared with him?

But people who subscribe to rape culture are arseholes. Pick up artistry is inherently associated with the alt-right and does treat women as effectively robots to be manipulated and won. The notions that a woman's place is in the home or that women shouldn't play certain sports are reactionary right, misogynist viewpoints. Misogynism is an essential element of rape culture.

What's worse than Godwin's Law is trying to project Godwin's Law onto the person you're debating with.

Intellectual dishonesty, eh?

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

You will find that most victims of crime (proven or assumed) tend not to be in most people's minds beyond a short period of time unless they either have some sort of vested interest like a family member or local person, or they are used as part of a media crusade e.g. the McCanns. Another reason that rape survivors are probably not in the general conscience of society is, ironically, because of their legal anonymity. It is difficult to put a face, a voice or a name to either a person or a group of people that are anonymous. There is a valid debate about how sections of our society approach the issue of consent for sexual activity, but using an emotive phrase as bait does nothing to really address that.

Rape is rarely considered a “law and order” or a “crime” issue. What high profile, self proclaimed “law and order” politicians in the “west” do you hear making rape and sexual abuse in general a big issue? Those that do talk about rape and sexual abuse only use it to whip up discrimination against Muslims (and I'm not saying Muslim cultures don't have a problem with misogyny or rape culture - they do). When it comes to native white populations, they're silent.

Most people relegate it to that oh so cute category that can be so easily be ignored - “women's issues”.

I bet anything if you ask most people on the street to name three “crime” issues in this country right now, they won't mention rape or sexual abuse. They'll likely mention the Dublin drug gangs, Travellers stealing, assaults on the streets after the pubs and clubs close, burglaries etc.

One in five women in Ireland experience sexual violence. Now, if one in five people in Ireland had, say been the victim of gun violence, do you think we'd consider that a problem? Would we call it a gun violence culture? Or would that consitute “snarl words” for you?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fover-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780

One in four females students at Trinity who responded to a survey say they have been the victims of sexual assault.
http://trinitynews.ie/one-in-four-female-tcd-students-sexually-assaulted-survey/

One in seven UCC students say they have been the victims of rape or serious sexual assault by only one in four of these victims report it.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1-in-7-ucc-students-were-victims-of-rape-or-sex-assault-319537.html

Only with rape and sexual assault could such a problem be played down to such an extent and  people object to saying there is a culture of such crimes, when there clearly is.

Which self proclaimed “law and order” politicians or “advocates” complained about these?

Quote
A man who regularly raped and sexually assaulted his girlfriend in her sleep has received a suspended sentence of seven years imprisonment.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/no-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fcourts%2Fcircuit-court%2Fno-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327

Quote
A businessman has been jailed for six months for attacking and sexually assaulting a woman on Griffith Avenue in Dublin in October 2010.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0730/331210-lyons-jailed-for-six-months-for-sexual-assault/



Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Nice strawman. What's your reasoning for women whom oppose repealing the 8th?

Decades of indoctrination by the Catholic Church would go a large part of the way to explaining it, as it did with opposition to decriminalisation of homosexuality, civil partnerships and same sex marriage, opposition to contraception and divorce and opposition to the X Case legislation.

To conclude, "rape culture" exists in this element simply as a snarl word. It has little to no subjective, testable evidence that has and/or can be measured across Irish society.

I've given you plenty of evidence.

Here's some more.

Quote
A new survey of students has found that 8% of females and 3% of males were certain someone had sexual contact with them when they were unable to provide consent because they were drunk, passed out or otherwise incapacitated in the past year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/8-of-female-students-report-sexual-contact-without-consent-464757.html

In Britain, one in 10 women has been raped, and more than a third subjected to sexual assault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/unreported-rapes-the-silent-shame-7561636.html

It's a media soundbite/slogan that ultimately cheapens the word "rape" and the crime that is associated with it, diminishing its hard value by putting it next to scenarios that wouldn't even be considered minor levels of sexual assault or outright mysogyny. A few arguments that were made might be tangible enough to point to a culture of mysogyny in certain sections of the Irish population but targetting that in isolation can lead to unintended consequences.

You can call it a media soundbyte all you want. Rape culture exists on a spectrum, but it all feeds upwards towards the sharp end, and the sharp end is widespread sexual assault and rape.

Just to make clear, my point of view is that to address the issues regarding sexual conduct and consent, is that it needs to involve Irish society as a whole and not just a portion of it. That means this includes men, women, third-genders, white, black, Asian, hetreosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, teenagers, senior citizens, "natives", foreigners, travellers etc. while by focusing on female survivors of rape perpatrated by males only attempts to address a part of the issue and one in isolation can be easily abused and manipulated to serve certain interests whereas it's more difficult to steer a narritave when it concerns all residents and visitors from around 12 year old and up. I said a few days ago that IMO the like of the #ibelieveher movement is inadvertantly helping to support sexism etc. and hopefully the above explains my reasons - being played for by a fringe group within the feminist movement that unlike the mainstream which seeks to equalise gender roles in society (unless there are compelling reasons otherwise) where a person's ability should not be determined by their gender, women - and men - within this sub group's primary motivation is to punish men as a whole for the sins of other men and those of their fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc. against women whilst ignoring sins made by women against men (yes, they exist). I don't see that as progressive. Under the law of both sides of the border we as individual adults are deemed, with the exception of those whom are deemed to not be able to give agency, to be equal in the eyes of the law. On that front whilst I recognise that male on female sexual assault and rape is significantly the most common type it is most certainly not exclusive. A male rape survivor is no less or more entitled to support for their experience than a female rape survivor. There should be no competition whatsoever in looking to rank different rape survivors either by gender or sexual orientation. If there was a movement to "equalise" sexual crime laws I would fully support it - but I can't back what has been happening because to me it is promoting an "us vs. them" approach to justice.
Who says a male or non gender-binary rape survior is not equally entitled to support than a female rape survivor?

What is your evidence for saying anybody wants to “punish men as a whole”? Nice imagined victimhood.

To address the problems facing not just Irish but all societies regarding rape and sexual assault, education and confrontation is necessary. That should mean mandatory consent classes at school but also calling out and challenging the prevailing culture for what it is.

The only people whose backs are got up by such confrontation are those who subscribe to such a culture and feel they have something to lose.

are you the same Sid Waddell who thought it humour to write about shagging Margaret Keady within a week of her late husband dying ???????????

standards ????

Hardy

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3662 on: April 05, 2018, 04:38:17 PM »
Feckit I give up. No matter how fast I read I keep falling behind Sid's faster typing.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

Syferus

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3663 on: April 05, 2018, 05:03:13 PM »
Get a hobby Sid.

Your response to one of two long replies tells its own story.

Franko

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3664 on: April 05, 2018, 06:09:46 PM »
Get a hobby Sid.

Your response to one of two long replies tells its own story.

What story's that now?  Enlighten us.

Taylor

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3665 on: April 05, 2018, 06:22:15 PM »
Jesus is not weeping but wailing at some of this shite.

Would there be a chance Sid and Syf are one and the same?

Farrandeelin

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3666 on: April 05, 2018, 09:17:24 PM »
Same one Orchard park. But that was supposed to be a bit of 'humour'. At least he deleted it.
The woman in red has the car parked on the slope.

Tony Baloney

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3667 on: April 05, 2018, 09:24:09 PM »
Jesus is not weeping but wailing at some of this shite.

Would there be a chance Sid and Syf are one and the same?
Hmmm. Not the first time this has been mentioned.

Franko

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3668 on: April 06, 2018, 12:30:44 AM »
Get a hobby Sid.

Your response to one of two long replies tells its own story.

What story's that now?  Enlighten us.

Yep, thought as much.  Heavy on the the hyperbole, but f**k all substance.

Orchard park

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3669 on: April 06, 2018, 01:10:51 AM »
Same one Orchard park. But that was supposed to be a bit of 'humour'. At least he deleted it.

Took a long time to

Gaaboardmod3

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Re: The ulster rugby trial
« Reply #3670 on: April 06, 2018, 09:01:46 AM »
Locking this topic now.