The ulster rugby trial

[caprea]

It was hijacking the rugby thread...

[Frank_The_Tank]

There’s two versions of what happened that night.one is consensual sex between three people,the other is the rape of a young woman by two men. I personally don’t know what happened that night,so I won’t make a judgement until all the facts are presented. What I don’t understand is how those, such as syferus, are so sure they are guilty? The text messages mean nothing, indicate no guilt whatsoever.
   I hope they serve real time if they are guilty. But what happens if they are found not guilty? You’ll have people condemning them as rapists who got away with it. Does that mean if you get accused of rape you’re automatically a rapist?let the courts do their job for Christ sake

quoting east down gael from the rugby thread.  I agree with this - dont see how anyone can say 100% it was rape based on the evidence so far.  however according to syferus for having some sense and waiting to hear all the evidence (at which point I may form the opinion they are guilty) we are just cavemen.  Ironic from someone who wants a caveman like justice system - 1 days evidence on one side of the story - I've heard enough guilty over and done with

Evidence so far from what I have read

text msgs between them on whatsapp
 doesnt make for good reading but enough to say rape - no for me

Taxi man account the girl was in hysterics
- yes that would lead you to think this was rape

Bruising/bleeding in vaginal area
- prosecution and Dr said consistent with trauma to the area but no indication if consensual - and others have said about mates who have had similar with wife so that doesnt guarantee rape for me.  Dont know if she had brusing on arms etc - not sure if that was mentioned in court.

Girl walked in but not reported in initial police interview -
 seems a bit strange that one and puts me back on the fence personally atm.

I think the girl that walked in on it will be a key witness and as someone alluded to earlier if she is either a prosecution witness or a defence witness will be a big factor (assuming she is called as a witness of course)

 

[Syferus]

How much do you know about how rape victims’ recollection of events is effected by the trauma of the event, Frank? Because to pretend like her not remembering details immediately is any sort of red flag highlights a serious lack of knowledge, nevermind empathy.

And to anyone not willing to read the tea leaves, what reason do you have to believe the victim may be lying and putting herself through this ringer?

Thanks.

[screenexile]

How much do you know about how rape victims’ recollection of events is effected by the trauma of the event, Frank? Because to pretend like her not remembering details immediately is any sort of red flag highlights a serious lack of knowledge, nevermind empathy.

And to anyone not willing to read the tea leaves, what reason do you have to believe the victim may be lying and putting herself through this ringer?

Thanks.

Again I’m not saying I don’t believe the girl I personally think the two lads are guilty from what I’ve read and heard so far but there are many reasons why she may have decided to take this case forward without her allegations being true.

I also don’t think the delay between it happening and her reporting it should be due any consideration by the jury.

[caprea]

The girl who walked in is going to be a defence witness. It was on newstalk.

I think the physical evidence is key and saying this could be caused by consensual sex while true doesn’t quite cover what I see in the physical evidence.

I have to be quite graphic here. If a rapist was lying on a girl and had her trousers down but couldn’t penetrate because her legs were closed together he would have to open her legs forcefully, to do that the most effective way would be to knee her on the inside of the inner thigh to stun the leg and put his knee into keep her legs open. He would then have enough room to penetrate. The sex would not be smooth like normal sex because the girl would most likely be trying to force her legs shut and wouldn’t be working in tandem with rapist, instead it would be a struggle from the girl that seems very possible to cause internal injuries.

So the physical injuries of a bruise on the thigh and bleeding on the vaginal wall are to me a big red flag.

[Syferus]

The idea that someone who happened to see Jackson (who if she recognised presumably she knew owned the house) having sex in a bedroom would have such a good, long and scientific look to be able to garner the nuances of was the woman consenting to the act is incredible to me. What would you do in that situation? You’d be fûcking embarrassed and want to get out of dodge as fast as possible.

Is this witness a friend of the accused? That also would severely effect how much weight anyone will put on their testimony.

[trileacman]

It's a man-laden jury and depending on how the jury react to the defences witnesses these lads could get off yet. An unfortunate situation for all involved if it goes that way.

I've heard no conclusive evidence of guilt yet. In many ways there are striking resemblances to the Evans case, intoxication, 3rd party involvement, etc. I've a lot of sympathy for Ched Evans, he was wrongly convicted of a heinous crime and carried a label that will hang around him for most of his life.

[Syferus]

It's a man-laden jury and depending on how the jury react to the defences witnesses these lads could get off yet. An unfortunate situation for all involved if it goes that way.

I've heard no conclusive evidence of guilt yet. In many ways there are striking resemblances to the Evans case, intoxication, 3rd party involvement, etc. I've a lot of sympathy for Ched Evans, he was wrongly convicted of a heinous crime and carried a label that will hang around him for most of his life.

The comparisons to the Evans case end sharp enough. How many rapes don't include intoxication, by the way?

[Frank_The_Tank]

The idea that someone who happened to see Jackson (who if she recognised presumably she knew owned the house) having sex in a bedroom would have such a good, long and scientific look to be able to garner the nuances of was the woman consenting to the act is incredible to me. What would you do in that situation? You’d be fûcking embarrassed and want to get out of dodge as fast as possible.

Is this witness a friend of the accused? That also would severely effect how much weight anyone will put on their testimony.

The point is you know nothing about this witness testimony yet as do none of us but you have your mind made up.

[Frank_The_Tank]

The girl who walked in is going to be a defence witness. It was on newstalk.

I think the physical evidence is key and saying this could be caused by consensual sex while true doesn’t quite cover what I see in the physical evidence.

I have to be quite graphic here. If a rapist was lying on a girl and had her trousers down but couldn’t penetrate because her legs were closed together he would have to open her legs forcefully, to do that the most effective way would be to knee her on the inside of the inner thigh to stun the leg and put his knee into keep her legs open. He would then have enough room to penetrate. The sex would not be smooth like normal sex because the girl would most likely be trying to force her legs shut and wouldn’t be working in tandem with rapist, instead it would be a struggle from the girl that seems very possible to cause internal injuries.

So the physical injuries of a bruise on the thigh and bleeding on the vaginal wall are to me a big red flag.

I didn't read anywhere about bruising on thighs etc caprea...have you got a link to where they mentioned that.  If there was bruising yo thighs or other areas of her body I would be back on the they are guilty but as I say I didn't read that in the report from case I've read.

[Milltown Row2]

The guy is a rugby player, a big lad I’d say, 15 stone? I’d say he’d bruise most people, again I’m not taking sides. (Need to put disclaimer in every time for the crusaders)

[seafoid]

A threesome is more like a porn setup. I wonder will the prosecution get fantasy personal with the lads. The other thing is the consistency of the stories.

[caprea]

The girl who walked in is going to be a defence witness. It was on newstalk.

I think the physical evidence is key and saying this could be caused by consensual sex while true doesn’t quite cover what I see in the physical evidence.

I have to be quite graphic here. If a rapist was lying on a girl and had her trousers down but couldn’t penetrate because her legs were closed together he would have to open her legs forcefully, to do that the most effective way would be to knee her on the inside of the inner thigh to stun the leg and put his knee into keep her legs open. He would then have enough room to penetrate. The sex would not be smooth like normal sex because the girl would most likely be trying to force her legs shut and wouldn’t be working in tandem with rapist, instead it would be a struggle from the girl that seems very possible to cause internal injuries.

So the physical injuries of a bruise on the thigh and bleeding on the vaginal wall are to me a big red flag.

I didn't read anywhere about bruising on thighs etc caprea...have you got a link to where they mentioned that.  If there was bruising yo thighs or other areas of her body I would be back on the they are guilty but as I say I didn't read that in the report from case I've read.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/it-was-like-a-merrygoround-at-a-carnival-ireland-rugby-stars-accused-of-rape-boasted-about-sex-on-whatsapp-36547048.html

She said she had bruising on thighs.....but then it says further down that medical personnel observed bruising on her genitals...so it could be from sex rather than how I originally read it as a knee etc to the inner thigh to get her legs open.

[general_lee]

How much do you know about how rape victims’ recollection of events is effected by the trauma of the event, Frank? Because to pretend like her not remembering details immediately is any sort of red flag highlights a serious lack of knowledge, nevermind empathy.

And to anyone not willing to read the tea leaves, what reason do you have to believe the victim may be lying and putting herself through this ringer?

Thanks.

Again I’m not saying I don’t believe the girl I personally think the two lads are guilty from what I’ve read and heard so far but there are many reasons why she may have decided to take this case forward without her allegations being true.

I also don’t think the delay between it happening and her reporting it should be due any consideration by the jury.

I actually thought she went to the police quite promptly - everything I’ve read on this *so far* points towards a horrendous attack carried out against this girl. She went for morning after pill, referred to Rowan centre then police. How many rape victims I wonder are in the right frame of mind to march straight to the police station to go through that whole ordeal first thing the next morning? The timeline of the messages to her friends the next morning - did she just decide between 5am and 9am that she was going to fabricate a rape claim? The fact it has got to trial as well sends out a pretty bleak signal in itself that something untoward has happened. The defence witness who walked in hopefully will not be as pivotal, she was asked did she want to “join in”, not exactly the language you expect from a rapist midway through the act so I would expect there to be an argument of implied consent somewhere from the defence.

[caprea]

I don’t think it’s really like the ched Evans case at all to be honest.

The girl didn’t even know originally she had sex with anyone in the ched Evans case. She just woke up in a hotel room and didn’t know how she got there.

Think what happened here is more clear cut from the complainant’s point of view although not completely clear cut.