I think the game is dying in front of us - Manus Boyle

[Zulu]

I'd blame McGuinness more than Harte, he got forwards working hard but it was McGuinness who got them all turning around ignoring the play to fill predetermined defensive positions.

The tactic is here to stay but any team with ambition to challenge the top teams must abandon it as their main style of play. I disagree with Lar, if teams want to win they must go more attacking and conventional. Kerry and Mayo could both have beaten Dublin in the last few years and they went for it in a largely conventional manner. Kildare, beaten by Armagh who were in turn hammered by Tyrone, could have been level with 15 minutes left by going toe to toe with Dublin whereas Tyrone with a 'sophisticated' defensive system were beaten with 15 minutes gone. Sean Cavanagh, despite being hammered, claimed Mayo needed to keep it tight and defensive as they couldn't afford to fall behind, well guess what? they conceded a goal in the first few minutes and then went on to kick Dublin around CP by playing football.

If the top teams think they can only beat Dublin or other top teams by keeping it tight then they aren't watching much football.

[AZOffaly]

I'd blame McGuinness more than Harte, he got forwards working hard but it was McGuinness who got them all turning around ignoring the play to fill predetermined defensive positions.

The tactic is here to stay but any team with ambition to challenge the top teams must abandon it as their main style of play. I disagree with Lar, if teams want to win they must go more attacking and conventional. Kerry and Mayo could both have beaten Dublin in the last few years and they went for it in a largely conventional manner. Kildare, beaten by Armagh who were in turn hammered by Tyrone, could have been level with 15 minutes left by going toe to toe with Dublin whereas Tyrone with a 'sophisticated' defensive system were beaten with 15 minutes gone. Sean Cavanagh, despite being hammered, claimed Mayo needed to keep it tight and defensive as they couldn't afford to fall behind, well guess what? they conceded a goal in the first few minutes and then went on to kick Dublin around CP by playing football.

If the top teams think they can only beat Dublin or other top teams by keeping it tight then they aren't watching much football.

Spot on. The seminal moment for me was when I watched them against Dublin I think, and literally from the throw in three or 4 lads went sprinting from the lined out forwards positions back to the 'zones' they were manning. I think Donegal actually even won the throw in.

[Zulu]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

[Syferus]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

Both teams played with dedicated sweepers and generally had 12-13 behind the ball when defending. There was little in the way of 1v1 except in cases where there was a defensive fúck-up.

Strange match to bring up.

[GaillimhIarthair]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

Chris Barrett gave an exhibition of individual defending, especially in the second half - well worth showing a few of his highlights to any juvenile team of how to execute a great tackle in a few different situations.

[Zulu]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

Both teams played with dedicated sweepers and generally had 12-13 behind the ball when defending. There was little in the way of 1v1 except in cases where there was a defensive fúck-up.

Strange match to bring up.

Will you go away out of that. There isn't any team which defends strictly with 6 players and haven't in 40 years as even in the 70's half forwards and midfielders could/would be back tracking their men or following the ball. So we aren't talking about that we are talking about a game where most defenders had a guy to pick up, both teams had forwards close to goal and many players defended against their man in one on one situations. Barrett was outstanding but he wasn't the only one who had to do it. All teams now attack and defend more as units and teams will drop back players to provide extra cover to their full back line but Dublin and Mayo play modern conventional football while Tyrone and Donegal (among others) play defunct defensive football. Serious teams need to mirror Mayo more, not Donegal.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Just imagine each man picked up and stuck with each man on the Dublin team. Call me naive but Surely the system is irrelevant if 14 good outfield players do their individual job well, mark Kilkenny connolly mc Menamen cooper mc Mahon and win the individual battles. The dubs system is a better system than tyrones as proven, but we didn't individually put a bloody hand on them.

That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.

I'm not involved in football, but is the art of one on one defending not coached anymore as a skillset in its own right?

Are coaches so preoccupied with systems that one on one coaching of defending is a thing of the past?

When has it ever been one-on-one? Once a player gets the ball the defence naturally drifts towards that area. Support will always be key to a good defence.

It was always one on one until harte brought in the horrible but effective idea of swarming round a man who had the ball. That is the main reason the game has become so bad to watch. Pat spillane took a lot of stick at the time but he was right - it was puke football and lots of other teams have copied it since. Harte even took it further the last couple of years with 15 players inside his own 45 metre line, with most of them inside of 35 yards from their own goals. Pathetic.

Another falsehood. Why don't you log in as your alter ego?

[Captain Obvious]

That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.

Paul Galvin wasn't too impressed with some of Mayos defending

Many people were frustrated with Mayo's Cillian O'Connor and lauded Chris Barrett. O'Connor kicked three crucial points from play. Barrett directly conceded three crucial points from play to Dean Rock. He also lost Rock for Diarmuid Connolly's point, and fouled Connolly for the winning free. He made a few turnovers — one from Con O'Callaghan who was on the ground seconds earlier with cramp — and he's in the running for man of the match.

The truth of the game tells a different story. Rock was man of the match, easily, yet his man is nominated? Something doesn't add up there.

The truth is it's very difficult to win All-Irelands playing an all-out running game. It leads to headless football. Take Connolly and the amount of time and space he was afforded on the ball. He jogged around for 40 minutes, turning here for a look and there for a pass like a kid afforded the chance to kick about on an empty Croke Park. His quality ultimately punished Mayo but they invited it on, passing the buck defensively in too many cases.

For all their effort no one marked or defended. Rock kicked two and fisted one point unchallenged. Eoghan O'Gara kicked a point in the first half with so much time he could have lit a cigarette. James McCarthy got away from Aidan O'Shea twice and had a good long look at goal to see where he would plant his score.

Mayo's game plan made no sense. Backs attacking, forwards defending. Bar David Clarke, Aidan O'Shea and Andy Moran I couldn't make out who was playing where. For one Rock score the nearest player to him was Cillian O'Connor on his own endline. That in itself told the tale of two free-kickers.

O'Connor spent an inordinate amount of time and energy deep in his own half to the detriment of his free-taking ability. Rock worked hard within an ordered system. O'Connor worked hard within a disordered system. If O'Connor's man went upfield he knew he had to go all the way with him or concede a score. Rock didn't have that worry. He tackled as far as the 45 and no further. His team covered him from there.

Mayo's problem was more fundamental: over-committing to a running game, attacking with 10 and 12 players, many of them backs, while under-committing to defence and leaving themselves exposed. With the amount of financial brains in the group it's no surprise Dublin knew the maths.

[blewuporstuffed]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is  reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a  card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.

[Zulu]

That's it in a nutshell. Every Chris Barrett turnover in the All Ireland final was roared to the rafters and are youtube clips you'd watch just as easily as great scores. He and Mayo showed you can defend when isolated and you don't need 101 bodies back to be defensively sound. The All Ireland final had 30+ scores but nobody could say it wasn't intense or that there was no defending. Once the penny drops with a few others we could have a great era of football. Blanket defending is fine for the likes of Carlow as they are just trying to survive, those wanting to win things should be going man for man and coaching their players to be able to do that. The thing is, a few teams could beat Mayo or Kerry in a shoot out and it's your only chance against Dublin so why not go for it? Trying to beat Dublin or Mayo in an arm wrestle is an almost certain loser.

Paul Galvin wasn't too impressed with some of Mayos defending

Many people were frustrated with Mayo's Cillian O'Connor and lauded Chris Barrett. O'Connor kicked three crucial points from play. Barrett directly conceded three crucial points from play to Dean Rock. He also lost Rock for Diarmuid Connolly's point, and fouled Connolly for the winning free. He made a few turnovers — one from Con O'Callaghan who was on the ground seconds earlier with cramp — and he's in the running for man of the match.

The truth of the game tells a different story. Rock was man of the match, easily, yet his man is nominated? Something doesn't add up there.

The truth is it's very difficult to win All-Irelands playing an all-out running game. It leads to headless football. Take Connolly and the amount of time and space he was afforded on the ball. He jogged around for 40 minutes, turning here for a look and there for a pass like a kid afforded the chance to kick about on an empty Croke Park. His quality ultimately punished Mayo but they invited it on, passing the buck defensively in too many cases.

For all their effort no one marked or defended. Rock kicked two and fisted one point unchallenged. Eoghan O'Gara kicked a point in the first half with so much time he could have lit a cigarette. James McCarthy got away from Aidan O'Shea twice and had a good long look at goal to see where he would plant his score.

Mayo's game plan made no sense. Backs attacking, forwards defending. Bar David Clarke, Aidan O'Shea and Andy Moran I couldn't make out who was playing where. For one Rock score the nearest player to him was Cillian O'Connor on his own endline. That in itself told the tale of two free-kickers.

O'Connor spent an inordinate amount of time and energy deep in his own half to the detriment of his free-taking ability. Rock worked hard within an ordered system. O'Connor worked hard within a disordered system. If O'Connor's man went upfield he knew he had to go all the way with him or concede a score. Rock didn't have that worry. He tackled as far as the 45 and no further. His team covered him from there.

Mayo's problem was more fundamental: over-committing to a running game, attacking with 10 and 12 players, many of them backs, while under-committing to defence and leaving themselves exposed. With the amount of financial brains in the group it's no surprise Dublin knew the maths.

Well unless you're suggesting Galvin's opinion can't be challenged I presume you'll accept that it's only an opinion. But let's go through his points you've highlighted -

I doubt many would agree Connolly jogged around Croke Park like it was empty but many lads have a bit of space in the half forward line and the second half of most games open up a bit, especially one of that intensity. How much time did Kilkenny have against Tyrone?

I was at the match and it's nonsense to say nobody marked. He lists scores where lads had time to shoot but that's true of every game, when scores come they are often when lads have a bit of time. Is Paul suggesting a guy should never have anytime when shooting at the posts?

Mayo set up conventionally (in modern terms) and conceded 1-17 but scored 1-16 and were the width of a post from being in front with a few minutes left. So what exactly was wrong with the way they played?

[Zulu]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is  reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a  card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.

I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.

[Syferus]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is  reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a  card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.

I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.

Are you watching a different Kerry side to the rest of us?

Whatever case you can make for Mayo trying to play positively, suggesting Kerry under Fitzmaurice do exposes how little you seem to have looked into this and that you are instead relying on old stereotypes to support your point.

[Zulu]

Lads, I have said this before, it was the ever-changing of the rules to favour the forward that led us down this path.
Its got to a stage now where it is so so difficult (impossible) to defend against any decent forward 1v1 , so the automatic thing for managers to do is to come up with a system to cover for this.

Did you not watch the All Ireland? Loads of examples of great individual defending. You can of course defend as an individual especially within a good team work ethic.

There were indeed some good examples of defending, but what i am talking about is what happens if you allow top quality inside forwards space to take on their man 1 v1 . there is  reason why managers set up teams to avoid this situation.It is almost impossible to defend that way. Defenders have to be far more conservative now than they used to be as any sort of incidental contact challenging for the ball can be given as a free against them, its not worth the risk. Add to that the fact that pretty much every foul now seems to get a  card, defenders are generally scared stiff of over committing. The only way to defend is in numbers.

I agree, there's been too much physicality taken out of defending but I don't agree the only way to defend is in numbers, Mayo and Kerry are proving that. Playing from the front and getting midfielders and half forwards to help out is the key, you don't need to play with double sweepers or lads dropping back into predesignated positions. Defend in your forwards and get support into the defensive danger zones will work just fine. You won't see a blanket defensive team win another All Ireland.

Are you watching a different Kerry side to the rest of us?

Whatever case you can make for Mayo trying to play positively, suggesting Kerry under Fitzmaurice do exposes how little you seem to have looked into this and that you are instead relying on old stereotypes to support your point.

Yeah that must be it. Kerry went at Dublin in national league final and at Mayo in semi final, ok, in replay they played a sweeper but couldn't do it so perhaps you could enlighten us on how they play a defensive system?

[Captain Obvious]

Well unless you're suggesting Galvin's opinion can't be challenged I presume you'll accept that it's only an opinion. But let's go through his points you've highlighted -

I doubt many would agree Connolly jogged around Croke Park like it was empty but many lads have a bit of space in the half forward line and the second half of most games open up a bit, especially one of that intensity. How much time did Kilkenny have against Tyrone?

I was at the match and it's nonsense to say nobody marked. He lists scores where lads had time to shoot but that's true of every game, when scores come they are often when lads have a bit of time. Is Paul suggesting a guy should never have anytime when shooting at the posts?

Mayo set up conventionally (in modern terms) and conceded 1-17 but scored 1-16 and were the width of a post from being in front with a few minutes left. So what exactly was wrong with the way they played?

Wouldn't be like you if you didn't challenge a opinion and at least you didn't call all of that opinion rubbish or nonsense like you tend to do with any opinions you don't agree with on here.

I'll try to answer your question marks. Kilkenny was marked out of All Ireland final by probably the best man marker in the game.

I think Paul is suggesting a guy should never have as much time and room on the ball to shoot at the posts in All Ireland final.

What exactly was wrong with the way they played?? well Mayo lost when they were arguably the better team on the day and it can be suggested Mayo with better overall defending Dublin wouldn't have got close to scoring 1-17.

[Zulu]

Some views are nonsense others are not, I don't call them all nonsense.

So you think a player should never have a bit of time in an All Ireland final? I'd challenge you to watch every All Ireland and come back to me with the years where no scores were unpressurised. I doubt there was any but maybe I'm wrong.

You didn't answer my question about Kilkenny. How much time did he have against a defensive team like Tyrone? According to Paul there was no marking in the All Ireland but you're telling us Kilkenny was man marked. So you disagree with Paul too, you might even say he was talking nonsense?

So Mayo lost due to the way they played, is that your contention? What would better defending be, getting more players behind the ball? But Syferus told us both teams had 12/13 behind the ball, perhaps you mean Mayo should have played double sweepers? Once you tell me how Mayo could have defended better we can then discuss if that would still have allowed them score 1-16, if they could then you're probably right.