Author Topic: Ballyjamesduff  (Read 17318 times)

seafoid

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #165 on: December 22, 2017, 10:56:13 AM »
I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I’m no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn’t that the important lesson here?

Valid post.
One issue that we haven't talked about in enough detail on the thread  (I haven't, and won't, read the Sun) is the fact that it was a man who murdered his partner and children. The case of Mary Keegan who murdered her children has been mentioned but there have been a number of cases in recent years where a man has murdered his partner and then murdered the children and then committed suicide Now I'm a man, a GAA man, and have links to Cavan.  I am also sympathetic and understanding of people who have mental ill-health. But my question is why do women who have mental health problems rarely murder their partner and children? Many men and women have mental health challenges but very few go on to murder their partners and children. This man felt he was facing loss of reputation but how the hell does that lead to murdering your partner and children ? We men, and GAA men, should actively challenge this idea that we have the right to control or have power over our partners. Some posters have focussed on mental health and some have even referred to the Irish News as gutter journalism because it suggested it was the man who did it. This guy used the ultimate control - murder- and it is horrible. So, no man ever has the right to have power and control over his partner. This was domestic violence, linked to mental health, and we should call it.
I can think of 2 cases where women killed at least on child and then themselves with both lineed to postnatal depression.
Jaysus would you shtop

charlieTully

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #166 on: December 22, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists. 

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #167 on: December 22, 2017, 01:32:10 PM »
I'd prefer discussion threads such as this to be left open

I never want to be the teacher or school who has to deal with the aftermath of such a tragic event in school the next day.
Harrowing for everyone involved.

Esmarelda

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #168 on: December 22, 2017, 01:44:02 PM »
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.
Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.


tonto1888

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #169 on: December 22, 2017, 01:48:33 PM »
I'd prefer discussion threads such as this to be left open

I never want to be the teacher or school who has to deal with the aftermath of such a tragic event in school the next day.
Harrowing for everyone involved.

A girl I used to teach hung herself when she was 17/18. She left the school after GCSEs but her friends were still there. It was not very nice at all

seafoid

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #170 on: December 22, 2017, 01:54:05 PM »
I think the term "forensic psychiatrist" is misleading.  Nobody knows how our brains work. Psychiatry is mostly trial and error. Tablets may or may not work.

If someone takes their own life there is no way to reconstruct  what they were thinking. There is a black box but nobody knows how to read it.
Jaysus would you shtop

charlieTully

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #171 on: December 22, 2017, 01:55:13 PM »
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.
Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.


A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.

Esmarelda

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #172 on: December 22, 2017, 02:18:11 PM »
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.
Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.


A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.
Nobody has mentioned diagnosis except you.

charlieTully

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #173 on: December 22, 2017, 02:28:10 PM »
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.
Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.


A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.
Nobody has mentioned diagnosis except you.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn’t diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
…..And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn’t committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

The psychologist in this case also feels that Alan Hawe suffered from a depressive condition which then developed into a psychotic act that day.


Mental health support is too mysterious. Even if Hawe had problems at work and in his marriage 4 people didn't need to die. Maybe he could have been hospitalised for a month or two.
If people are experiencing psychotic symptoms they should be under medical supervision
Most of the 450 or so people who take their own lives every year do not know that help is available.







« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 02:33:35 PM by charlieTully »

seafoid

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Re: Ballyjamesduff
« Reply #174 on: December 23, 2017, 10:42:50 AM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hawe-killings-fit-characteristics-of-other-murder-suicides-1.3336832

Hawe’s lengthy suicide notes left at the scene of his crimes – evidence that Prof Kennedy relied on, along with Hawe’s counselling and GP notes, for his diagnosis – reveal a man intent on taking his own life and explaining the murders of his family on the basis that he was saving them from the shame of living with his suicide.

“I know you all will suffer with this but I couldn’t do it to the one who loved me so much and boys so young. I was ultimately going to ruin the rest of their lives,” Hawe wrote to members of his own family and his wife’s family.

‘Shame’

In another section, he wrote: “I cannot let them face a life without me and the shame they would have to bear that their father had committed suicide. I have wanted to kill myself for a long time now and I just could not bear the thought of leaving my mess and the anger and rejection that Clodagh and the boys would have to live with forever.”

He expressed shame repeatedly, over the effect of his mental state on his family, over his work and over himself.

“I am sorry for all the people who showed me so much love and I never repaid it. I was always a selfish person. Clodagh didn’t deserve to have to put up with that. I am so, so sorry. Don’t forgive me.”

Clinical psychologist Dr Eoin Galavan said that it is common for suicidal people to see themselves as a burden on others and to believe that they would be better off without them. He cited “burdensomeness” as one of the core concepts from research by Florida State University academic Thomas Joiner in the area of murder-suicides.



“Believing you are a burden on those around you, that this burdensomeness is a stable and permanent and unlikely to change, is a potent driver of the desire for death,” said Dr Galavan.

“A person may believe they are sparing the victim the pain of enduring the wake of their own suicide . . . Of course, this is a distorted belief, and from the outside looking in this is obvious. However, the suicidal person can believe this with deep conviction.”

Warped

The normal desire to protect your children can become warped when someone suffers from psychosis.

“In the case of murder suicide, these everyday beliefs and attitudes are distorted and perverted to the point of killing those whom the person may believe they are caring about,” said Dr Galavan.

Brendan Kelly, professor of psychiatry at Trinity College Dublin, says delusional people can often fear something terrible is about to happen to them or their family and to avoid this suffering they have to kill their family.

“It is a very deluded mental state but the alleviation of suffering through killing is obviously a big risk factor and it has been described in many cases of murder-suicide,” he said.

Hawe’s beliefs, revealed in his notes, that people were looking at him “oddly” over the summer before he committed the murders or that they had a dim view of his work as a teacher seem to have fed his unstable state.

“Murder-suicide can also be based on delusions which are fixed, false belief but delusions are a little more than regular beliefs,” said Prof Kelly.

“They usually carry more of a conviction that a person needs to act.”

Jaysus would you shtop