Author Topic: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact  (Read 11157 times)

Whishtup

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2017, 07:56:08 PM »
I don't know. Derrytresk had a special mass the night before the Dromid Pearse's game. That worked a treat.

omaghjoe

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2017, 08:43:45 PM »

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.

omaghjoe

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2017, 09:00:50 PM »
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.

How is the discussion about Jock Stein a Red herring? The discussion was specifically about Jock Stein handling his Catholic players. Logic eh you inventing logic fallacies FFS.. that might be a new type of logical fallacy now that i think about it

Ive discussed this thing about logic and evidence with you a 1000 times. It seems your gathered your belief from faith in science as the whole truth which (whether you realise it of not) stems from dogma of empiricism and materialism. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that either of those are fully accurate. In fact since your mentioning logic I will have to invoke the most acceptably acclaimed work on logic......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Pure_Reason
Which is in direct opposition to empiricism and materialism.

So which do you choose ET?

easytiger95

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2017, 09:27:25 PM »
No the discussion was about Mickey Harte forcing all his players to say the rosary pre-match.

I can prove this empirically. That's what it says on the thread title.

The Jock Stein comment was an aside from Tony Fearon. But you've never seen a point you didn't miss.

As for Kant, you should try Schopenhauer's later critque of his work. Very illuminating.

As for what side I'm on, tell you what, you pick one and I'll go the other. I'm fairly sure I can't go wrong with that.

Rossfan

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2017, 11:39:48 PM »
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?
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thejuice

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2017, 12:07:21 AM »
Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.

Humans are a funny sort and sometimes we need these unfathomable symbols and gestures to pull together either for good or ill sometimes.
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J70

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2017, 12:36:29 AM »

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.

I think it was arrogant and presumptuous of Stein, but perhaps more defensible given the time, as I've already conceded. Such an attitude of "knowing best" is of course appropriate and necessary when it comes to a lot of issues with running a team (or any organization), for reasons we've both outlined when it comes to standards and expectations necessary for performance. Its extension to the forced participation in a religious ceremony, at least in this day and age, is absolutely questionable and objectionable.

Given your dismissal of me as a "closed minded fundamentalist", would you think it appropriate for me to run the Donegal senior team and insist on them getting together before the match with some kind of "there is no god, only the glory we make for ourselves right here and now" type of chant? Or maybe some political chant? Or would it be more appropriate for me to leave my own feelings on the existence of gods or politics at home and find some other means to try to inspire the team to pull together? Would you be comfortable if you were based out in the middle east and everyone, if they were going to play for the team, was expected to get down, face east and praise Allah before heading out on the pitch? We are talking about sports teams here, remember, not religious organizations. Religion, as I've already said, is a highly contentious and personal issue. It has its place in society for those who want it, but a sports team that is supposed to be based purely on ability and dedication and is supposed to be open to all, regardless of race or creed, is not an appropriate outlet.

APM

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2017, 12:37:10 AM »
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

It doesn't matter if he asked them or not.  It tells reinforces the outsider view that GAA is for catholics and we wouldn't be welcome there.    What impression does it give to people that we aspire to welcome into the GAA?  Instead of having an argument about religion = bad or religion = good, surely  it is possible to understand that you don't have to be anti-religion (I'm not, but not a fan of evangelising) to understand how this is perceived outside the association and outside the team.  And it is also fair to ask whether the players would be able to say no if the man that picks the team asks them to say the rosary together. 

Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.


But religion is different particularly in the north. 

J70

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2017, 12:51:16 AM »
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants. I'd imagine at least some resented it, some were bored and endured it as a small price to pay for getting on the team, and others found value in it.

J70

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2017, 01:02:24 AM »
Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.

Humans are a funny sort and sometimes we need these unfathomable symbols and gestures to pull together either for good or ill sometimes.

Is the Haka or "work like god" catch phrase a potential source of division or exclusion?

omaghjoe

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2017, 06:38:28 AM »

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.

I think it was arrogant and presumptuous of Stein, but perhaps more defensible given the time, as I've already conceded. Such an attitude of "knowing best" is of course appropriate and necessary when it comes to a lot of issues with running a team (or any organization), for reasons we've both outlined when it comes to standards and expectations necessary for performance. Its extension to the forced participation in a religious ceremony, at least in this day and age, is absolutely questionable and objectionable.

Given your dismissal of me as a "closed minded fundamentalist", would you think it appropriate for me to run the Donegal senior team and insist on them getting together before the match with some kind of "there is no god, only the glory we make for ourselves right here and now" type of chant? Or maybe some political chant? Or would it be more appropriate for me to leave my own feelings on the existence of gods or politics at home and find some other means to try to inspire the team to pull together? Would you be comfortable if you were based out in the middle east and everyone, if they were going to play for the team, was expected to get down, face east and praise Allah before heading out on the pitch? We are talking about sports teams here, remember, not religious organizations. Religion, as I've already said, is a highly contentious and personal issue. It has its place in society for those who want it, but a sports team that is supposed to be based purely on ability and dedication and is supposed to be open to all, regardless of race or creed, is not an appropriate outlet.

Jock's results mean that his methods could hardly be called into question. People do sports for various reasons including religious belief so why would it be precluded besides in the interest of fairness you'd also have to get rid of other potential divisive issues like national anthems and advertising. In fact why stop there cos the most divisive thing in sports is the bloody teams themselves.....

Anyway my understanding was that Mickey Harte consulted with players and he got positive feedback.

If I was in the middle east I wouldn't play football cos id melt but seriously i wouldn't partake in another religous ritual, Id do my own simple as, if it was illegal like in Saudi Arabia or going to put my or my family in danger I wouldn't partake, but thats hardly a fair comparison.

punt kick

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Locking the Tyrone getting hammered thread.
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »
Really made my day lads!



rionach 4

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2017, 08:58:33 AM »
 Would have problems with the rosary on my dev.team. Three of my players are devout Muslims

Esmarelda

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2017, 11:30:57 AM »
Omaghjoe, (not going to quote your piece as half the page will be taken up) are you seriously saying, regardless of the broader discussion, that Stein's results justify his methods, i.e. the end justifies the means regardless of what they may be?

I'm not sure what you mean by people do sports for religious reasons but I agree that players shouldn't have to stand to attention for the national anthem and also shouldn't have to bear a sponsor on their jerseys if the see fit. This will be problematic but I suppose it should be stated to those concerned when the player enters then panel/squad.

I'd say the rosary evening if it meant me or a family member not being killed.

Rossfan

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Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2017, 11:49:03 AM »
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants.
On last Sunday's evidence I'd say all the Tyrone players are true meek and mild non violent turn the other cheek Christians.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.