Poll

Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
126 (53.6%)
No
94 (40%)
Undecided
15 (6.4%)

Total Members Voted: 235

Author Topic: Would you be in favour of a second tier?  (Read 39877 times)

five points

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #480 on: May 17, 2019, 01:14:11 PM »
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.

Keyser soze

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #481 on: May 17, 2019, 01:43:43 PM »
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them. 

Farrandeelin

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #482 on: May 17, 2019, 01:45:11 PM »
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.

Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.
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five points

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #483 on: May 17, 2019, 02:02:20 PM »
Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.

Agree 100%. My idea is aimed more at those who seem hell-bent on a new county competition without any regard for clubs.

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #484 on: May 17, 2019, 03:02:04 PM »
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
And a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Esmarelda

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #485 on: May 17, 2019, 03:12:31 PM »
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
Exactly my point.

They beat Division 1 teams on very few occasions and they also beat Division 3 teams on very few occasions. So what?

imtommygunn

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #486 on: May 17, 2019, 10:58:39 PM »
Thereís a big gap between division 3 and 4 though. Division 2 to 1 seems a jump whereas 3 to 2 not as much of a jump. As an Antrim fan it feels like we mainly play the same teams year in year out as itís just yo yo down there barring Tipperary who have improved a lot(barring last week)and Louth seem to go through phases of dragging themselves out of 4. Sligo come and go too. Limerick, Antrim, Wicklow, London, Wexford now, Leitrim, Carlow all regulars. Championship performance generally reflect this too bar limerick last week.

Division 4 pace is so far behind 1 itís like a different game. Not as bad as the hurling but the likelihood of shocks getting less. I would say though that to me the limerick result was a big shock last week so you will get exceptions.




armaghniac

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #487 on: May 18, 2019, 11:11:05 AM »
Antrim really is an outlier that should be at least in the middle rank rather than the lowest rank of teams.
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five points

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #488 on: May 19, 2019, 11:22:46 AM »
Not too many in Breffni Park last night wanting to drop the Ulster Championship. Beating Monaghan means infinitely more to Cavan than doing likewise to say Galway or Kildare ever would.

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #489 on: May 19, 2019, 12:19:06 PM »
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?
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oakleaf93

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #490 on: May 19, 2019, 09:00:05 PM »
We need a two tier championship so we don't have to watch a div 2 v div 3 rivalsl play out a tight game in front of 15,000 people

Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #491 on: May 19, 2019, 09:12:36 PM »
Another who hasn't read the outline of the current proposals that I posted earlier in this thread.
 
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Armagh18

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #492 on: May 20, 2019, 07:58:47 AM »
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8ís, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQFís. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isnít even equal. 

five points

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #493 on: May 20, 2019, 09:37:20 AM »
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?

Quite a number of people, including here, want to play them in wintry February and March as some sort of glorified McKenna Cup, which amounts to the same thing.

BennyCake

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #494 on: May 20, 2019, 10:17:31 AM »
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8ís, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQFís. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isnít even equal.

The provincials have been undervalued by the qualifiers. Itís nice to win but itís not the end of the world for those with AI aspirations, if you donít.

So, if you donít have a link from provincials to AI series (you sort of donít really now anyway),whatís the point? Teams would then use it as a warm up for the cíship. In the same way they do in the League now. It would go the same way as the Ulster Hurling cíship.