Derry Club Football & Hurling original

[JoG2]

I am one of the 39 season ticket holders of Derry and am considering whether it is worth renewing for another year. I keep reading about the introduction of a second tier competition which given our low league position I am assuming Derry would be in this second tier. I have absolutely no interest in watching Derry play in a meaningless second tier competition.  I would much rather they played against currently stronger teams even if it resulted in some heavy defeats. If this comes into operation I will not be attending and I have missed very few games in the last almost 50 years.

I struggle to understand this mentality. It's akin to firing all clubs in Derry into the John McLaughlin. Slaughtneil v Glack in the 1st round. 40 point defeat, but sure as long as they have the prestige of being in the JMcL cup 

To me it makes perfect sense to have championships based on league standings, in the same way club championships are structured. By all means keep the provincial championships which every team enters, with a reward being that if you reach the provincial final or win it, you are automatically entered into the Sam Maguire. If not you play in the championship based on your league standing (Sam Maguire = division 1 and 2, 2nd Tier Competition = division 3 & 4 teams).

I'm sure if you asked any Banagher or Limavady player this season did they feel any sense of belittlement of their championship success the answer would be not at all. You don't get chances to win much silverware at adult level, so with a bit of backing and support for a similar county structure, we would soon see these competitions getting the recognition they deserve.

We can't get all our top players to commit to playing Senior, there's no way we will get any meaningful group of top players to give that level of commitment if they are going to be playing junior championship.

This whole process towards tiering is another step on the inexorable drive of certain parts of the GAA towards establishing gaelic as a semi professional sport with an elite number of teams.

Anathema to everything I believe the GAA to be.

How is this sustainable though and how do you define semi-pro? The elephant in the room is of course Dublin. It's an absolute behemoth and is a country mile ahead of the next county. Everyone know's the population, structural, money advantages it has over every other team and everyone is sick writing and reading about these advantages. Presently we have 1 team competing for the Sam Maguire, Dublin  (I'd confidently put house on them winning it again in 2019) and a few others a good bit ahead of the flailing pack, Mayo, Tyrone, Galway maybe and Kerry. Many are hoping that the success of the Kerry minors of late will help Kerry form a team who can compete with Dublin. That's the sad state the county championship is currently in, that somehow the Kingdom can put together a team to even put it up to the Dubs. How depressing is that?!  If the likes of Tyrone and Mayo have a slim chance, there's the vast majority who have absolutely no chance, so why have them in this turkey shoot? In the last few years the AI championship has become the same as the Leinster championship ie a Dublin parade.

I am one of the 39 season ticket holders of Derry and am considering whether it is worth renewing for another year. I keep reading about the introduction of a second tier competition which given our low league position I am assuming Derry would be in this second tier. I have absolutely no interest in watching Derry play in a meaningless second tier competition.  I would much rather they played against currently stronger teams even if it resulted in some heavy defeats. If this comes into operation I will not be attending and I have missed very few games in the last almost 50 years.

I struggle to understand this mentality. It's akin to firing all clubs in Derry into the John McLaughlin. Slaughtneil v Glack in the 1st round. 40 point defeat, but sure as long as they have the prestige of being in the JMcL cup 

To me it makes perfect sense to have championships based on league standings, in the same way club championships are structured. By all means keep the provincial championships which every team enters, with a reward being that if you reach the provincial final or win it, you are automatically entered into the Sam Maguire. If not you play in the championship based on your league standing (Sam Maguire = division 1 and 2, 2nd Tier Competition = division 3 & 4 teams).

I'm sure if you asked any Banagher or Limavady player this season did they feel any sense of belittlement of their championship success the answer would be not at all. You don't get chances to win much silverware at adult level, so with a bit of backing and support for a similar county structure, we would soon see these competitions getting the recognition they deserve.

We can't get all our top players to commit to playing Senior, there's no way we will get any meaningful group of top players to give that level of commitment if they are going to be playing junior championship.

This whole process towards tiering is another step on the inexorable drive of certain parts of the GAA towards establishing gaelic as a semi professional sport with an elite number of teams.

Anathema to everything I believe the GAA to be.

Well if we can't get the top players committing to allow us to play senior, then a dose of reality is needed and accept the fact we are not currently a senior level county.

I am absolutely against the semi-pro or pro drive by the way, but I would be of the opinion to let those who want to represent Derry, and there will always be those willing - play, and play at a level they can compete. Success breeds success, and for me it would be better for those to be there enjoying their football and competing.

You say Derry are 'currently' a third tier team, I think if tiering is brought in the financial and other infrastructure the top level teams establish will make it nigh impossible for other counties to break into that elite group.

[Derry are a 2nd tier team presently and I'd say we'll be back in tier 1 within 3-4 years. Of course there is no guarantee but it's definitely attainable. But with the tabled tier proposals, ALL counties start out as Tier 1 and from this starting point, and as games are played, all counties are filtered into tier 1 and tier 2. Surely this is the fair and sensible route to take?]

The move to Qualifiers and subsequently to Super 8 has seen the framework for this already established, the core group of elite counties are already firmly in place, the cows in the field could tell you who they are.

[The genie cannot be put back in the bottle, hence the introduction of the tiered championship. The current format is a waste of time and effort for most counties and players, and its no surprise the % of inter county players dropping out.]

Moving to tiered championships is the next stage in cementing this so that only the top 8 teams will have the resources and structure in place to compete at the top level, everyone else will be left behind.


[Within our own county, the strong club scene, Owenbeg facilities, the 3rd highest payment for coaching in the country, we , at least on paper have the resources and structure to at least compete for top 8 and look where we are at??. But what about a tonne of other counties who don't have these luxuries?? The turkey shoot is playing out before our eyes]


The writing is on the wall for all to see here in the way the game has gone over the past decade.

[Agreed,  and has been for a long time. Is it a pride thing that's stopping counties, players, supporters from just accepting a tiered championship? Take Derry for example in option 1 of the tiered proposals. We play tier 1 against Tyrone. We lose, we're into qualifier 1 and winning ensures we continue within the tier 1 . If we lose after qualifier 1 or 2 we're filtered into tier 2 because that is where we currently belong. It's a no brainer imo] #turkeyshoot

[Keyser soze]

No offence JOG, and I genuinely do hope you are right and I am wrong, but there is not a mission of us being able to compete on a level playing field with Tyrone or Donegal at the minute and how you think we will be at the top table in 3 or 4 years is beyond me. We have been defeated easily by both of them over the past number of years without them having to get out of first gear. They have structures in place which we cannot match hence the massive dropout rate from our panel which is up against it numbers wise to start off with.

This is as a result of the whole thrust of GAA policy over the past 15 years which has been to make the strong stronger and let the devil take the hindmost, tiering is just the latest manifestation of this. The gap will grow wider, you just wait and see how many players will vacate the panel for a tier 2 competition. There has been a massive apathy in Derry from supporters and players over the past while, if you believe that will be rectified by a tiers well I just can't see that happening.

[JoG2]

No offence JOG, and I genuinely do hope you are right and I am wrong, but there is not a mission of us being able to compete on a level playing field with Tyrone or Donegal at the minute and how you think we will be at the top table in 3 or 4 years is beyond me. We have been defeated easily by both of them over the past number of years without them having to get out of first gear. They have structures in place which we cannot match hence the massive dropout rate from our panel which is up against it numbers wise to start off with.

This is as a result of the whole thrust of GAA policy over the past 15 years which has been to make the strong stronger and let the devil take the hindmost, tiering is just the latest manifestation of this. The gap will grow wider, you just wait and see how many players will vacate the panel for a tier 2 competition. There has been a massive apathy in Derry from supporters and players over the past while, if you believe that will be rectified by a tiers well I just can't see that happening.

I suppose again it comes down to how you define top table..what i was thinking was top 8. I'm certain this is attainable, and if I'm being brutally honest, it would maybe take the likes of O'Rourke or someone at that level to achieve this. The county management team have to deliver a very positive year with solid founds for 2020. 2019 is last chance saloon territory.

The 2nd part in bold. Look I've stood with 4 others in O'Moore Pk, a dozen in Pearse Pk, 30 odd in Páirc Tailteann (2 years ago in Div 2 ffs) etc etc etc ...we're probably in the bottom 5  in the country re support. Tier 1 or 2 won't make much of a difference. The carrot is to stay in tier 1 and option 1 gives us that shot. Can I also qualify, that my support for a 2 tier would come with a couple of caveats, to really work, a % need televised and the final has to be on AI final day. I know tix are like hens teeth atm, but a few thousand band wagoners* missing out on an AI final is a small price to pay to keep counties and players interested beyond June.

* a loyalty scheme (separate to season ticket) would be handily introduced and mean those who've been to a certain percentage league /. championship matches enter in pot 1 for tickets for the All Ireland final if their county is playing, these attending a smaller % in pot 2 etc

[Keyser soze]

No offence JOG, and I genuinely do hope you are right and I am wrong, but there is not a mission of us being able to compete on a level playing field with Tyrone or Donegal at the minute and how you think we will be at the top table in 3 or 4 years is beyond me. We have been defeated easily by both of them over the past number of years without them having to get out of first gear. They have structures in place which we cannot match hence the massive dropout rate from our panel which is up against it numbers wise to start off with.

This is as a result of the whole thrust of GAA policy over the past 15 years which has been to make the strong stronger and let the devil take the hindmost, tiering is just the latest manifestation of this. The gap will grow wider, you just wait and see how many players will vacate the panel for a tier 2 competition. There has been a massive apathy in Derry from supporters and players over the past while, if you believe that will be rectified by a tiers well I just can't see that happening.

I suppose again it comes down to how you define top table..what i was thinking was top 8. I'm certain this is attainable, and if I'm being brutally honest, it would maybe take the likes of O'Rourke or someone at that level to achieve this. The county management team have to deliver a very positive year with solid founds for 2020. 2019 is last chance saloon territory.

The 2nd part in bold. Look I've stood with 4 others in O'Moore Pk, a dozen in Pearse Pk, 30 odd in Páirc Tailteann (2 years ago in Div 2 ffs) etc etc etc ...we're probably in the bottom 5  in the country re support. Tier 1 or 2 won't make much of a difference. The carrot is to stay in tier 1 and option 1 gives us that shot. Can I also qualify, that my support for a 2 tier would come with a couple of caveats, to really work, a % need televised and the final has to be on AI final day. I know tix are like hens teeth atm, but a few thousand band wagoners* missing out on an AI final is a small price to pay to keep counties and players interested beyond June.

* a loyalty scheme (separate to season ticket) would be handily introduced and mean those who've been to a certain percentage league /. championship matches enter in pot 1 for tickets for the All Ireland final if their county is playing, these attending a smaller % in pot 2 etc

Yeah I imagined you were talking about top 8... not actually winning anything lol

I would say if there is a tier 2 competition you will have difficulty finding the results on RTE or in the Irish News let alone getting to see it on TV. Suggesting the final be played on AI sunday is beyond ridicule.

In the longterm when there are established levels will counties be able to enter teams at both Senior and Junior. Imagine the Dubs doing the double. f**k me CP would wet their pants with excitement at that prospect.

[Glenman93]

So does anyone know all the various leagues and who is in what league next year?

[oakleaflad]

So does anyone know all the various leagues and who is in what league next year?

What exactly are you looking for? The senior club football leagues?

If so, I believe it is as follows (Bolded teams to play senior championship, underlined to play Intermediate):

Div 1A
Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Div 1B
Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Div2
Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans

[Glenman93]

So does anyone know all the various leagues and who is in what league next year?

What exactly are you looking for? The senior club football leagues?

If so, I believe it is as follows (Bolded teams to play senior championship, underlined to play Intermediate):

Div 1A
Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Div 1B
Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Div2
Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans

Perfect. Thanks

[theticklemister]

That Division 1b looks tasty hi

[Dabh]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil  
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry 
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey 
Bellaghy 
Ballinascreen  
Swatragh 
Banagher

Newbridge 
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy 
Foreglen 
Castledawson 
Ballymaguigan 
Steelstown 
Drumsurn 
Faughanvale 
Limavady

Ballerin 
Slaughtmanus 
Desertmartin
Lissan 
Craigbane 
Doire Trasna 
Drum 
Magilligan 
Moneymore 
Doire Colmcille 
Glack
Ogra Colmcille 
Ardmore 
Sean Dolans 


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

[Franko]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

Good idea.  Sure the current junior clubs can just slide on te f**k.  Bound to be happy enough.   

[Champion The Wonder Horse]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

And we could further apply the Kerry model by introducing regional teams.

The Clady Valley - Bellaghy, Lavey & Greenlough
The Roe - Dungiven and Banagher
Moyola - Castledawson, Newbridge & Ballymaguigan
Kilrea & Desertoghill - Kilrea, Swatragh, Glenullin, Ballerin
Tyrone - Lissan, Ogra, Loup, Moneymore (Loup may have already tried that one)

[Champion The Wonder Horse]

So does anyone know all the various leagues and who is in what league next year?

What exactly are you looking for? The senior club football leagues?

If so, I believe it is as follows (Bolded teams to play senior championship, underlined to play Intermediate):

Div 1A
Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Div 1B
Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Div2
Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans

A small thing possibly, but could the 12/12/14 model be replaced with a 13/13/12 one.

Would mean div 1 and 2 teams would have an equal number of home and away games and a week off during the season (possibly at the request of the club).

Would also mean that the strongest 1B team and the two strongest teams in div 2 would be moved up. The three reconstructed Divisons would lose little in terms of competitiveness.

[JoG2]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

Good idea.  Sure the current junior clubs can just slide on te f**k.  Bound to be happy enough.   

You'd genuinely fear for a few of the junior clubs next year. If the likes of Ardmore or Colmcille are drawn to play the likes of Ballerin, 'Manus, Lissan, Craigbane, Desertmartin etc, never mind the likes of  Drum and Glack in the first half dozen rounds and routine drubbings are dished out, it'll be a tighter slog than ever to field. Junior this past season was very fractured with a good few fixtures not fulfilled. Could be a very long season for the bottom 3/4 teams unless they miraculously unearth 6/7 players somewhere and it won't be from their respective minor teams (neither Ardmore or Colmcille for example fielded minor in the league the last 2 years). Tough times ahead but hopefully a few years down the line the new structures raise these clubs to be competitive.

Re the Kerry divisional teams, I've often wondered about the logistics of training, locations for games, effects on their clubs, training for say 2 different systems etc...

[restorepride]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

And we could further apply the Kerry model by introducing regional teams.

The Clady Valley - Bellaghy, Lavey & Greenlough
The Roe - Dungiven and Banagher
Moyola - Castledawson, Newbridge & Ballymaguigan
Kilrea & Desertoghill - Kilrea, Swatragh, Glenullin, Ballerin
Tyrone - Lissan, Ogra, Loup, Moneymore (Loup may have already tried that one)

Strange split, as Bellaghy and Castledawson are the same parish!  Anyhow, most regional teams in Kerry would eat up all the South Derry Clubs put together, area wise!

[Hoof Hearted]

Apply the Kerry Model to this list for Senior, Intermediate & Junior using the percentages that Kerry do
58 clubs in Kerry League - 8 Senior (~13.8%),16 Intermediate(27.5%) 16 Junior(27.5%)(referred to this year as Jnr Premier) -- 16 Junior  & Novice after that

We'd have 4/5 Senior - 11 Intermediate, 11 Junior

Slaughtneil 
Magherafelt
Coleraine
Glen
Ballinderry
Dungiven
The Loup
Lavey
Bellaghy
Ballinascreen 
Swatragh
Banagher

Newbridge
Kilrea
Greenlough
Glenullin
Claudy
Foreglen
Castledawson
Ballymaguigan
Steelstown
Drumsurn
Faughanvale
Limavady

Ballerin
Slaughtmanus
Desertmartin
Lissan
Craigbane
Doire Trasna
Drum
Magilligan
Moneymore
Doire Colmcille
Glack
Ogra Colmcille
Ardmore
Sean Dolans


So to make things even, should we run off an intermediate competition from the current senior championship - the 11 that don't make the semi-finals.
& the current intermediate competition winners can represent us at Junior Level

And we could further apply the Kerry model by introducing regional teams.

The Clady Valley - Bellaghy, Lavey & Greenlough
The Roe - Dungiven and Banagher
Moyola - Castledawson, Newbridge & Ballymaguigan
Kilrea & Desertoghill - Kilrea, Swatragh, Glenullin, Ballerin
Tyrone - Lissan, Ogra, Loup, Moneymore (Loup may have already tried that one)

Be a cold day in hell id imagine before any of those will happen !!