Are defensive systems the way forward?

[Fuzzman]

An article in today's Irish Indo shows Paul Curran from Dublin enjoying the turnaround in GAA circles where Kerry have abandoned their SO CALLED traditional style of football to try whatever it takes to beat the Dubs.

Do people on here think the blanket defence style of play which Jim McGuinness seem to bring to the table (or at least took to a new level), is here to stay or will it just be a passing phase.
Personally I think the game as we knew it with 6 forwards against 6 defenders is a thing of the past and it will never return to that set up. The game has become a lot more tactical with too much emphasis on stopping the other teams to play. It will be interesting to see how the next phase of Kerry teams coming through from minor and U21 develop.

Kerry should be ashamed of themselves' - Dubs legend hits out at Kingdom's style of play
By Frank Roche Irish Indo
March 31 2017 4:29 PM


Paul Curran has a bone to pick with Kerry. And it's not because he's a Dub looking to score a few cheap points off the enemy when they're down. He's angry because they're one of a select few capable of beating Dublin but they are, he maintains, going about it entirely the wrong way. "Kerry," he says, "really should be ashamed of themselves."
Steady on - where did that come from? Initially, not even Curve Ball was too sure after phoning Curran, this week, for his reflections on the glut of gilt-edged forward options currently available to Jim Gavin.

But then the Herald columnist switched the point of attack to Kerry - partly because he was still flummoxed by how they had set up against Dublin a fortnight back.
"Whether they had them or not, but they all told us they had values. They've abandoned them completely," he claimed.

"Now, they're playing this football ... I don't know, it's crazy, and they've no chance of winning the way they're playing. If they come out and play football and give their young fellas a chance, and play the way they played traditionally, I think they've a chance.
"They're making the mistake – and a lot of teams are making the mistake – of going defensive against Dublin. Totally defensive. Dublin will find a way past you. I think teams have got to come out and front up, orthodox, and try and get them on the back foot as often as possible.

"They're playing into their hands, and Kerry are obsessed with Dublin at the moment. Obsessed."
Mind you, he sees Kerry's 'obsession' as part of a trend. "All teams are living and dying by their tactics – and most of them are dying," he explained.

Curran cited the recent meeting in Tralee, where Kerry went four up early in the second half while playing with the wind.
"They had the chance to drive on," he said. "And what did they do? No, they decided 'We'll keep men back, we'll protect' ... but that just invited Dublin on, instead of going for the jugular and killing the game.

"Kerry have the talent, they've young fellas coming through, whether they're ready or not. But I think they're coming into a set-up where it's more negative than positive, in terms of playing the game."
Warming to his theme, he signed off: "For a decade and a half or two decades, I've been listening to Kerry fellas giving out about northern football and 'puke football' ... now, Kerry are as bad if not worse than what we've seen from the Tyrones and the Armaghs in the last decade. They're bringing it to another level."

Kerry readers, those who haven't already abandoned us in a fit of fury, may beg to differ. Ditto, we suspect, éamonn Fitzmaurice.
But it all adds a fresh dollop of spice to whenever these arch-rivals next clash. Watch this space ...

[seafoid]

I think it's a handpassing phase. It will be superseded by something else.
What is interesting is that the counties with a more expansive freescoring style such as Down and Galway never really got to grips with the approach.

Benny Coulter was interviewed as few years ago


"The Mayobridge star retired from inter-county football this week after 15 years in the Mourne County jersey and, in a wide-ranging interview in today's The Irish Daily Star, he says the game is more about fitness nowadays than individual skill and flair.
"There are games you got to at club level where two teams are playing defensive systems and it is ridiculous at times," Coulter said.

"I was even reading stuff the other day, colleges games where they were playing two sweepers."When we were playing for St Mark's (Warrenpoint) in '96 or '97 you just went out and played football, and the better man won, but, now, even at minor level it's down to tactics and crap like that.
"There is too much time spent in the gym and crap like that, or in front of tvs watching stuff."Maybe the likes of 'Skinner' (Eoin) Bradley he'd be a player I'd pay in to watch because he is that unpredictable."He is the type of fella that just plays off the cuff and does his own thing."With a lot of county footballers it's more to do with how fit you are, stuff like that – it sickens me too at times."


One question I would have is whether Tyrone will catch up with Down's 5 all Irelands before the system changes.

[Zulu]

It won't change until the rules are changed IMO. However, it is losing football and is killing the sport. It's a real shame as we could easily have 3-17 to 2-19 type games with intensity and great defending, high fielding and skill if teams played more courageously. Hard to blame teams trying to be more competitive though, get lots of players back and you'll probably not lose by 7 or 8 points but 9 times out of 10 you'll still be beaten by better teams. It's the kept it tight and try to nick it mind set that makes a lot of soccer unwatchable.

[Hardy]

We can decide what we want the game to be. The Association makes the rules and the rules determine how the game is played. Coaches devise systems to exploit the rules to their teams' advantage. Often they import ideas from other games. Hence the growing similarities between Gaelic Football and some aspects of Rugby League, some aspects of Basketball and the worst aspects of Soccer (feigning, trash talking, etc.). Mostly introduced by coaches to seek advantage.

Coaches don't, and shouldn't, care about whether or how their systems change the nature of the game. But the Association should.

Unfortunately, a very large majority in the Association seem happy with the running, handpassing, possession game that's almost universal now. So there's no appreciable impulse for change and no will on the part of the Association to pull the game back to something resembling what it was. I say "unfortunately" because I'm in the minority that can't bear to watch that kind of stuff. There's no skill in it, not enough uncertainty, reduced excitement. For me.

I was in Páirc Uí Rinn last week. By general agreement it was an exciting game – big lead reversed, reversed again, draw with the last kick. I found it incredibly boring, apart from the short while when Meath decided (or happened, I don't know) to change tactics, move the ball fast, long and accurately, compete for possession in the forward line and trust their shooting. For the rest of the game it was fifteen handpasses (mostly lateral or backwards and short) for every one kick. And synchronised running in waves. Rugby League/Basketball. Boreball.

So unless it changes, I'll be losing out because I won't be paying to watch that sort of stuff very much, if at all. I'll really miss what was my favourite game in the world. Hurling's pretty good and I'm really getting into Rugby but I'll never get as much out of them as the game I played, knew and – yeah – loved.

[seafoid]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kerry-should-be-ashamed-of-themselves-dubs-legend-hits-out-at-kingdoms-style-of-play-35583122.html

[Fuzzman]

Interesting post Hardy though why do you say you are in the minority and do you really think there is a large majority in the association happy with the running possession game. I don't think there is. I think most people are fed up to the back teeth with the way our game has changed for the worse.

Of course managers and coaches don't care too much about providing us with entertainment but it's totally a results business and as more and more people from GAA backgrounds studied sports studies etc at college they of course applied tactics from other sports to help their own team to have a chance against the big boys.

One of the reasons we all loved our gaelic games I think so much was the 1 on 1 tussles and where a skillful player can use his skill or speed to to beat his man and take a great score or pass. As Benny Coulter said last year now that never happens and so our star players are not given a platform to show us their skills any more.

Nowadays with so much effort gone into how to stop these talented players from tearing teams apart you get this soccer style of parking the bus with 10-13 players back in their own 40 to make it hard for a team to use their best forwards.

For me, I can't see it changing unless their are rule changes as most managers have realised that if you don't have a system in place you will not beat a team who do have a system in place. Look at the Dubs a few years ago when they won their AI in 2011 and compare them to how they play now.

Some will argue that the better teams have adapted and they can still put up big scores but like you said Hardy the games are no fun to watch any more. You don't see a skillful talented forward make a good run, get a good pass, turn his man and beat maybe 2 or 3 players as he's smothered as soon as he gets the ball, Like in rugby, you need to offload almost as soon as you get the ball.

I think the GAA need to bring together a lot of people and have an open discussion on the way our game is going cos at the moment nobody will want to break this pattern as it's too successful for those who can master it properly.

[mayoman dan]

We can decide what we want the game to be. The Association makes the rules and the rules determine how the game is played. Coaches devise systems to exploit the rules to their teams' advantage. Often they import ideas from other games. Hence the growing similarities between Gaelic Football and some aspects of Rugby League, some aspects of Basketball and the worst aspects of Soccer (feigning, trash talking, etc.). Mostly introduced by coaches to seek advantage.

Coaches don't, and shouldn't, care about whether or how their systems change the nature of the game. But the Association should.

Unfortunately, a very large majority in the Association seem happy with the running, handpassing, possession game that's almost universal now. So there's no appreciable impulse for change and no will on the part of the Association to pull the game back to something resembling what it was. I say "unfortunately" because I'm in the minority that can't bear to watch that kind of stuff. There's no skill in it, not enough uncertainty, reduced excitement. For me.

I was in Páirc Uí Rinn last week. By general agreement it was an exciting game – big lead reversed, reversed again, draw with the last kick. I found it incredibly boring, apart from the short while when Meath decided (or happened, I don't know) to change tactics, move the ball fast, long and accurately, compete for possession in the forward line and trust their shooting. For the rest of the game it was fifteen handpasses (mostly lateral or backwards and short) for every one kick. And synchronised running in waves. Rugby League/Basketball. Boreball.

So unless it changes, I'll be losing out because I won't be paying to watch that sort of stuff very much, if at all. I'll really miss what was my favourite game in the world. Hurling's pretty good and I'm really getting into Rugby but I'll never get as much out of them as the game I played, knew and – yeah – loved.

I dont think you are in the minority.Watching my own team Mayo this year has been like watching paint dry. Short kick outs handpassing and 15 men behind the ball is ruining football.I have 3 friends that gave up club football this last year and they all told me the same thing......The fun is gone out of it.I dont blame the coaches if you go man on man with Dublin its suicide but i think some rules need to be changed.A video ref would be a start. reffing a game of football as it stands is impossible with all the off the ball carry on.Personally i like the idea of a team having to keep 4 players in the opposition half at all times.A video ref would be needed for this.Teams funnelling 15 men in their own 45 and trying to counter attack while the attacking team handpasses backwards and sideways is pure shite.

[seafoid]

Interesting post Hardy though why do you say you are in the minority and do you really think there is a large majority in the association happy with the running possession game. I don't think there is. I think most people are fed up to the back teeth with the way our game has changed for the worse.

Of course managers and coaches don't care too much about providing us with entertainment but it's totally a results business and as more and more people from GAA backgrounds studied sports studies etc at college they of course applied tactics from other sports to help their own team to have a chance against the big boys.

One of the reasons we all loved our gaelic games I think so much was the 1 on 1 tussles and where a skillful player can use his skill or speed to to beat his man and take a great score or pass. As Benny Coulter said last year now that never happens and so our star players are not given a platform to show us their skills any more.

Nowadays with so much effort gone into how to stop these talented players from tearing teams apart you get this soccer style of parking the bus with 10-13 players back in their own 40 to make it hard for a team to use their best forwards.

For me, I can't see it changing unless their are rule changes as most managers have realised that if you don't have a system in place you will not beat a team who do have a system in place. Look at the Dubs a few years ago when they won their AI in 2011 and compare them to how they play now.

Some will argue that the better teams have adapted and they can still put up big scores but like you said Hardy the games are no fun to watch any more. You don't see a skillful talented forward make a good run, get a good pass, turn his man and beat maybe 2 or 3 players as he's smothered as soon as he gets the ball, Like in rugby, you need to offload almost as soon as you get the ball.

I think the GAA need to bring together a lot of people and have an open discussion on the way our game is going cos at the moment nobody will want to break this pattern as it's too successful for those who can master it properly.

Attendances are falling as well. Maybe Dubs vs Mayo is interesting but further down the food chain the games increasingly aren't. Lot of players are opting out too. 
The game is all about defences. I wonder why they bother having 6 forward all Stars.

[Lone Shark]

Soccer teams used to play with the same amount of attackers as defenders too - but you'd be a long time waiting for that to come back.


The unfortunate thing about the standard modern, tactical approach is this - it beats the traditional style hands down, every time. Of course I'm not saying that Waterford playing defensive football will beat Kerry playing 6-2-6, but if twoteams of reasonably equal ability meet, then the fall-back-and-counter-attack side will always prevail. Even if you look at things like short kickouts - if the keeper is any way accurate with his restarts and the opposition don't pull off a high press with lots of honesty and energy, you'll


I agree that the rule makers could change things very easily, but we have a tendency in the GAA to only make reactive changes, hence things like the black card, which has been something between a qualified success and a complete failure. What we need to do is decide what way we want the game to look, and to then find ways to encourage that, or to discourage the aspects we don't like. Personally I believe that the time for 13 a side is well upon us, but I'd also be conscious of the fact that no matter what way you do things, you're going to find it very hard to encourage teams to go back to the days of long balls into a contest between two or more players.

[BluestackBoy]

Every team has a defensive system & I can never remember a time when teams didn't have a defensive system. The difference nowadays is that the top teams have defensive systems that work & the best teams have defensive & attacking systems that work.

Even Donegal, blamed by many for inventing defensive, negative football, now have the best of bot with a tight defensive system & an exciting attacking aspect to their play.

All any team can do is make the best of their resources but one thing is sure, without some sort of defensive system you are toast.

[dec]

Ban the handpass?

[Fuzzman]

Brolly discussing this now on Newstalk

[Ball Hopper]

Free kicks must go forward would be a start.

[seafoid]

It is more than just tactics. Players are effectively semi professional. Fitness levels are much higher than 20 years ago. Stress injuries are doing serious damage. The GAA commercial wing is out of control. The GPA got a fantastic deal as well. Nobody seems to be in charge.

[From the Bunker]

It is more than just tactics. Players are effectively semi professional. Fitness levels are much higher than 20 years ago. Stress injuries are doing serious damage. The GAA commercial wing is out of control. The GPA got a fantastic deal as well. Nobody seems to be in charge.

Dublin GAA are in charge. The rest of us are periphery this Juggernaut.