Author Topic: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend  (Read 6010 times)

thewobbler

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2017, 04:55:03 PM »
I wonder has anyone put the Leeny/Jinxy/me thing to the panels of the weaker Counties?
Anyway don't the wise old Administrators usually make decisions so as to save the GAA from mad young lads who should be out playing and burning off energy instead if interfering in the running of theach Assocuation☺
You know those under 25s and their undeveloped lobes and all that.
Seriously what is the dream of entering the Qualifiers for the D4 teams? Even if some of them do a Longford and bate a few big lads over the years there's still no cup or medals or big day out in Croker.

This is the same case with every competition in the world.

Why did Dundalk even bother taking part in the Europa league?

Or Hull in the Premiership?

Or Cleveland in the NFL?

Or Ballymartin the Down SFC?

To test yourself at the highest level and to build upon it.

Rossfan

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2017, 04:56:19 PM »
It just strikes me as weird that junior/intermediate/senior or some variation is in place in practically every level of competition in the GAA except senior intercounty football.
Wasn't  always the case. Ros were graded Junior in the 1930s and our 1940 AI JFC was won by our first 15.
3 years later.....
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Rossfan

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2017, 04:58:15 PM »
Wobbler - them teams won the right to play there just like Junior club champions go Inter and Inter Champions go Senior
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thewobbler

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2017, 05:16:43 PM »
Wobbler - them teams won the right to play there just like Junior club champions go Inter and Inter Champions go Senior

But they aren't representative teams.

Stop thinking of GAA counties as clubs and instead accept them for what they are - representative teams, more in line with an international football or rugby or cricket side. When a player isn't good enough to make any of those representative teams, he goes back to his club side. But when he is good enough, he doesn't get to choose which country he plays for; he makes the best out of what has been given.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2017, 06:03:06 PM »
Until I hear a steady stream of players from division three and division four counties say that they want a tiered structure at senior county level, I won't believe that there is any demand for it. The players I know would prefer to train all year for a Leinster championship and to keep alive the dream of "maybe, it might be our day" than to give in and admit that the Dubs are unbeatable. The Leinster SFC match between Offaly and Westmeath at Mullingar this year meant more to those involved than any intermediate final would, and that's as it should be. I'd wager you'd get a similar response from Leitrim, who would have targeted the game against Roscommon all year, and good luck convincing Tipperary (A D3 team, let's not forget!) that they belong in a second tier championship after the year they've just had.

 There's no shortage of ex-players from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo who like to push for a second tier championship, but it's easy say that when your county wouldn't be involved. They're like the Merc drivers who want better public transport, not so that they'd have to use it and rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but so that it might clear the roads a bit and make more space for them. Of course the likes of Martin Breheny wants it too. He can have more games between the big teams and save himself the hassle of mixing with the hoi polloi out in the sticks. 

Moreover, those selling the idea of a second tier championship like to promise things that they're not in a position to deliver. Already we're in a situation where the national media is far more interested in reporting bland comments from a manager or player with one of the top teams than on actual matches, and the GAA has allowed this situation to the develop. A picture is painted of good coverage of second tier games and an August Sunday in Croke Park, but what will actually happen instead is that the crowds won't be good enough, the games will be quietly moved out of HQ, and the papers will largely ignore the competition. Already I've noticed that many papers don't provide reports from ordinary games that they would have covered previously, instead going for wrap up articles, or ignoring them already. The TV cameras will have no interest in covering Leitrim vs Carlow the Junior championship so sponsorship opportunities for those counties will diminish, widening the gap even further.
Nail on head there.

BallyhaiseMan

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM »
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:35:29 PM by BallyhaiseMan »

lenny

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM »
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

skeog

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2017, 09:19:16 AM »
Seems to be some apathy in Donegal Odhran Mc Niallis and Anthony Thompson opting out.

thewobbler

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2017, 10:28:00 AM »
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

Do you think it is a good or a bad thing that the inter-county hurling championship is effectively divided into senior, intermediate and junior?


If as a player (let's say someone from Down) you're used to playing in front of crowds of around 500 people in a competition that barely registers a column in regional papers and never makes the TV, i.e. The Ulster Senior Hurling Championship... then playing in a second tier competition is never going to cause much anguish.

If as a player (let's say someone from Down) you're used to having at least one very bright day in the sun every summer, then it's a hell of a comedown to second tier football. Made even worse by the fact that some of the team will want to push on and go up (by training 6 days a week) and others will accept it for what it is and train accordingly.

Jinxy

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2017, 11:15:46 AM »
Yes, but you're talking about changing a mindset as opposed to there being something fundamentally wrong with the idea of a senior/inter/junior system at inter-county level.
Plus, I would be in favour of retaining the provincial championships as stand-alone cup competitions a la the FA Cup.
The NFL would basically morph into what we know now as 'The Championship'.
So, as a player in a 'weaker' county, you now have a better chance of winning meaningful silverware, whether it be a junior 'All-Ireland' championship or a provincial championship.
Look at how well a lot of lower league teams do in the FA Cup now that the top teams are primarily focused on the Premiership and European football?
We have to be willing to put up with the whinging from players and managers and look at the bigger picture here.
Never mind planning for the next 5 years, we should be planning for the next 15-20 years.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 11:19:43 AM by Jinxy »
If you were any use you'd be playing.

Rossfan

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2017, 11:39:36 AM »
Long term indeed Jinxy.
Should be some Committee/Commission looking at where we might be in 2037, where we should aim to be, how we get there, competition structures demographic  changes, etc etc
Never mind who'll vote for what at the next Congress.
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Jinxy

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM »
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

AZOffaly

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM »
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

Esmarelda

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2017, 12:05:00 PM »
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.
A few? "There is no appetite" is what we're being told by the GPA and by Croke Park.

Your view is valid but, as AZ has pointed out in this endless discussion, what are we trying to fix if we change the championship structure? Are we trying to keep the media happy or are we taking into account all of the stakeholders, of which I would suggest the players are probably the highest rank, and adjusting the championship to suit their wishes?

I think it is, and should be, the latter and I think that's what the new proposal has attempted to do.

AZOffaly

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Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2017, 12:19:25 PM »
I'd be thinking along similar lines to Lone Shark on this one. If there is a drive amongst the players and county boards to go into tiers, similar to the hurling, then fair enough, go for it. I don't think those hurling tiers have been treated at all fairly, but it's still probably an improvement on their lot before they came in. At least most counties field teams now, and play competitions.

Of course in football, all counties (bar Kilkenny) already play and field teams at Senior level, and while they all have varying levels of competitiveness, the players and counties seem content to be part of the race for Sam and their provinces, however unlikely their prospects for ultimate success.

I believe, strongly, that if the teams and counties want to compete at a single level, then we should allow them to do so. Cinderella stories are rare, but they do exist, and I'd hate Tipperary, Offaly, Sligo, Westmeath, Louth etc to have missed out on great days at provincial/national level relatively recently, simply because someone thinks they shouldn't be allowed mix with the big boys.

That said, I would be open to considering a system which places more emphasis on the league, and eliminates things like the qualifiers. Or perhaps places more emphasis on the Provincial championships, but only allows Provincial finalists move on to an All Ireland series.

Two that I could see possibly working are

1) Seedings in provincial competitions being determined via league standings, with the high seeds only entering the provincials at a later stage. This would be similar to what already happens in Munster for example, but the seedings would be based on league position, rather than previous year championship results. Provincial is knockout, and there is no qualifier.

2) Provincial tournaments drawn as is, but only the finalists (8 teams) are allowed enter the final race for Sam. This could then be done as per the proposal for the round robin today. For the remainder the Province is straight knockout, and once you are gone, you are gone.

I just know that if we come along and say right lads, these 8 teams are in the Sam Maguire, these 12 are in the Cormac McAnallen Cup and these 12 are in the Enda Colleran Cup, you will almost immediately see the value of the games in the lower tiers dissipate, and I'm convinced you'd see a further fall off in numbers of lads willing to commit for a summer of games in front of pitiful attendances, ignored by media and fans alike.

I'd be fairly sure that Tipperary's recent, and modest, achievements (no senior adult cups yet!) would not have even occured if they were consigned to a tier 3 competition.