Author Topic: Gaels amalgamations  (Read 74423 times)

clonadmad

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2016, 11:30:45 AM »
Did Carrig and Riverstown once play separately in two different counties?
If not, it is not the same thing. Moneygall certainly isnt.

AFAIK there is no way for Kyle and Knock to link up without at least one of the clubs being disbanded.

Carrig at one time played in Tipp
Riverstown played in Offaly and then with Lorrha,before going back into Offaly and amalgamating with carrig who are situated in Tipperary

Moneygall played in Offaly then amalgamated with Toome and finally split and then went out  on their own in Tipp.

So they are valid examples

Firstly, I asked a question.

Secondly, Moneygall moving from Tipp to Offaly and back is different to Knock or Kyle moving one way or the other. There is a much bigger crossover with the two counties in Moneygall. Is the present Moneygall club a result of two clubs(one Offaly and one Tipperary) who at some stage amalgamated and decided to play in Tipperary? No, I didn't think so.

Finally, as I said, there is no way for it to happen without at least one of the clubs disbanding  ::)

The original question to which I answered was if a cross county amalgamation had taken place.

It has and it is possible

As i said (but I'll repeat for the special cases among us!), that was a question! Nobody said it was impossible to start with. What Moneygall did is not a relevant example. Entirely different thing.

How is your juvenile realignment coming on?!

It's coming along very well  Keyser,you might lay off the insults,your not the only one around here with hurling knowledge.

Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2016, 11:33:32 AM »

It's coming along very well  Keyser,you might lay off the insults,your not the only one around here with hurling knowledge.

Don't remember making that claim, but thanks for the compliment.

Good to hear, I look forward to all of those Colt, Shanahoe (and presumably Ballypickas) men going to battle in Clonad jerseys!
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clonadmad

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2016, 11:50:19 AM »

It's coming along very well  Keyser,you might lay off the insults,your not the only one around here with hurling knowledge.

Don't remember making that claim, but thanks for the compliment.

Good to hear, I look forward to all of those Colt, Shanahoe (and presumably Ballypickas) men going to battle in Clonad jerseys!

Yeah that "compliment" went right over your head Keyser,special case indeed.


"presumably Ballypickas" ?

You keep presuming there,son

"men" its a juvenile amalgamation,do keep up....

looking forward to seeing all Clond/Fintans gaels juvenile hurlers on the one team in 2017.

Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2016, 12:04:15 PM »

"presumably Ballypickas" ?

You keep presuming there,son

"men" its a juvenile amalgamation,do keep up....

looking forward to seeing all Clond/Fintans gaels juvenile hurlers on the one team in 2017.

You say St Fintan's Gaels- Colt and Shanahoe are just St Fintan's - so is it Trumera or Ballypickas you are also planning to get into the sash?

looking forward to seeing all Clond/Fintans gaels juvenile hurlers on the one team in 2017.

That is some climb down  ;)
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burdizzo

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2016, 04:42:46 PM »
Includes Ballypickas. There may be an isolated player or two from Trumera at some age groups, but certainly not all.

Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #125 on: December 29, 2016, 03:42:44 PM »
Includes Ballypickas. There may be an isolated player or two from Trumera at some age groups, but certainly not all.

So you could have Na Fianna playing Clonad St Fintan's Gaels
Potentially Mountmellick/Ballyfin/Clonaslee/Courtwood/Emo v Colt/Shanahoe/Clonad/Trumera/Ballypickas?
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burdizzo

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #126 on: December 29, 2016, 04:32:53 PM »
Potentially.
However, as you well know, some of the clubs you mention are not hurling clubs at all (Emo, Courtwood), and others are very small rural clubs struggling for numbers at adult level, never mind at juvenile level. It would be preferable if all these could field on their own at underage, but the reality is they can't. Not one of them. So, probably better joining up, and giving lads access to top level (Division 1) hurling, than allowing them to struggle away as smaller amalgamations in Divisions 2 or 3. Probably better, I say, as I realise some fringe players will drift away. But that'd happen anyway.

Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2016, 05:14:52 PM »
Potentially.
However, as you well know, some of the clubs you mention are not hurling clubs at all (Emo, Courtwood), and others are very small rural clubs struggling for numbers at adult level, never mind at juvenile level. It would be preferable if all these could field on their own at underage, but the reality is they can't. Not one of them. So, probably better joining up, and giving lads access to top level (Division 1) hurling, than allowing them to struggle away as smaller amalgamations in Divisions 2 or 3. Probably better, I say, as I realise some fringe players will drift away. But that'd happen anyway.

I dispute this.
Mountmellick should be fielding on their own at this stage. Probably Ballyfin too.
I understand that they may have needed to join up as a short term solution to years of neglect. But that excuse cannot be used anymore.

A bit of effort and organisation and there is no reason that Mountmellick and Ballyfin couldn't each field a team on their own.

Primary School Enrollment numbers back this up;

Ballyfin -129 , Barnashrone- 29 (158)
Mountmellick- 272
The Rock- 107
Clonaslee- 59 Castlecuffe- 39 (98)
Emo- 128
That comes to a total of 763 boys or an average of 95 per class. Underage grades generally cater for two classes. That's about 190 kids. We get one hurling team out of that.

Compare these figures to
Camross- 69 Kilanure- 19 (88)
Borris- 58 Kiladooly- 57 (115)
Castletown- 75 Paddock- 37 Rushall- 20  (132)
Ballacolla-12 Clough- 62 (74)
Rosenallis- 46 Derrylamogue- 56 (102)
Shanahoe- 38 Raheen- 52 (90) + Trumera- 20 (110)


The above figures are boys only.
That means in Ballyfin parish for example there are about 20 boys in every year.
Thats 40 u8s, 40 u10s, 40 u12s, 40 u14s and 40 u16s.
No club achieves 100% uptake. Surely 50% is possible. Thats 20. And that is before you include "playing up" with for example u12s playing u14 also.

I am not against clubs trying to expose their players to A grade hurling. I am also not against players from football clubs being accomodated by clubs to play hurling. But there has to be some control over. We cannot afford the wastage involved in fielding some of these heavily amalgamated juvenile clubs.
But I have argued this before- Laois cannot afford for one juvenile hurling club to be catering for a primary school population of 763 boys.

You can say that there isn't a strong tradition of hurling in Mountmellick.
7 and 8 year olds don't care about tradition. They will play anything.
Mountmellick have produced some excellent underage teams in the past when they had interested and hardworking people like Gerry O Flaherty putting teams together.

Na Fianna is covering for a lazy approach to underage development.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 05:22:09 PM by Keyser Söze »
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burdizzo

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2016, 06:30:53 PM »
Yes, I accept Ballyfin and Mountmellick SHOULD be fielding on their own, and I know they have a lot of subs, so there will be lads falling away. But, as I say, this will happen anyway. In a way, though, I agree - this doesn't reflect that well on the clubs involved.
However, you can't dismiss the importance of tradition. Seven and eight year olds might play anything, but in the end it's the parents who encourage, coax, and carry them to matches. If they're wishy-washy about it, then the child will probably be, too. Also, Mountmellick is primarily football, and I presume the better lads will be filtered into playing football first. So, culture in a club, and tradition ARE important.
As for the Clonad/ St. Fintan's thing: Trumera and Ballypickas have very few players; Clonad cannot field on their own w/out Ratheniska, and St. Fintan's are struggling at the younger age groups. That's the unfortunate reality. What's the problem?


Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2016, 07:01:17 PM »
What's the problem?

You ask, what's the problem?

I didn't once say there was a single problem with Clonad, St Fintan's, Ballypickas or Trumera being involved in any sort of amalgamation.
I think it is messy, but I don't object, and haven't. If the original post implied this, well then I correct myself here.

Also I didn't say tradition wasn't important, I said it doesn't stop kids from participating when presented with opportunities to do so. Those opportunities should come from proactive intervention by those with a vested interest- i.e. Laois GAA and their local GAA Club. You mention that Mountmellick has a tradition of football, yet they cannot manage to draw underage football teams on their own from those numbers.
Therefore, IMO, it is not tradition or a tradition of football that is stopping them from fielding their own underage teams, rather it's a culture of inactivity and taking the handy way out.
Similarly Ballyfin have history here. Various allegiances with Castletown, Slieve Bloom, or both were previously in existence.

Some smaller clubs are forced into creatively operating from year to year in order to maintain a juvenile presence, that is fine. But where there is evidence that numbers exist to allow them compete on their own, it shouldn't be accepted as the long term solution, by either club or county board. That doesn't apply to the likes of Trumera, Ballypickas, Kyle etc.
St Fintan's in fairness have always tried to do things the right way. Clonad also appear to have good people involved and certainly do their bit to promote hurling.

Na Fianna started as Mountmellick and Ballyfin. It has spread since, taking in more clubs. Clonaslee a few years ago. I hear that Camross are going with them at some grade/grades next year.
Conveniently expanding arrangements like Na Fianna inevitably claim some success (eg Minor Hurling Final 2014), keep the stronger players and their parent's happy, get decent representation on county panels and will often be held up as an example of "doing things right" and an argument for "mass amalgamations".
The bottom line is that huge numbers are being totally uncatered for. I would imagine that no other club in the county, bar Portlaoise, has such a low level of participation. There is the world of difference between players falling off as they get older, for all of the age old reasons, and those players not been catered for in the first place.

It is lazy, short sighted and self serving for those who drive it.

We are a small county and cannot afford that level of wastage, that's the problem.
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Don Draper

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2016, 07:10:35 PM »
Well said Keyser

redsetanta

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #131 on: December 29, 2016, 07:31:07 PM »
Good point and very well made Keyser.
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Heshs Umpire

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #132 on: December 29, 2016, 08:43:43 PM »
Includes Ballypickas. There may be an isolated player or two from Trumera at some age groups, but certainly not all.

So you could have Na Fianna playing Clonad St Fintan's Gaels
Potentially Mountmellick/Ballyfin/Clonaslee/Courtwood/Emo v Colt/Shanahoe/Clonad/Trumera/Ballypickas?
I'm not going to dispute the thrust of your argument. But it's a bit disingenuous to give Courtwood equal billing with the other clubs in Na Fianna. I think either one or two players hurled this year from our club. One under 14 and possibly one minor.
Well I could keep it above
But then it wouldn't be sky anymore

Keyser Söze

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #133 on: December 29, 2016, 08:47:39 PM »
Includes Ballypickas. There may be an isolated player or two from Trumera at some age groups, but certainly not all.

So you could have Na Fianna playing Clonad St Fintan's Gaels
Potentially Mountmellick/Ballyfin/Clonaslee/Courtwood/Emo v Colt/Shanahoe/Clonad/Trumera/Ballypickas?
I'm not going to dispute the thrust of your argument. But it's a bit disingenuous to give Courtwood equal billing with the other clubs in Na Fianna. I think either one or two players hurled this year from our club. One under 14 and possibly one minor.

At the same time I wouldn't underestimate the impact an "extra" player or two, particularly those up to the age, can make to a juvenile team.
The point is the availability of players like this heightens this amalgamations ability to be even lazier about player development.
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clonadmad

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Re: Gaels amalgamations
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2016, 10:25:01 AM »
You can quote all the school numbers you want Keyser ,the reality is based on what comes through the local clubs gates and then those who prefer or want to play hurling.

There must be over 200 boys in each national school class.in Portlaoise parish schools,would 30% be playing any form of Gaelic games?.

I know from talking to teachers,it's a lot lower than that.