Garda strike

[Rossfan]

If we weren't paying interest on the bail outs, Anglo, Fingleton etc books would be in a surplus.

[macdanger2]

Absolutely. But if my auntie were my uncle and all that....

[muppet]

But like everyone else they have suffered since the financial crash. And when you look at policing around the world, they are generally very good at what they do.

More than 90% of people, there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.
The government declared recovery, while still legally restricting the pay of certain people on the basis of an "emergency". Never going to end well. Learning lessons from the past, the government could have proposed some sort of rational basis for pay in the future, but instead they just decided to keep the emergency legislation going as long as possible so that they could give out goodies elsewhere. Now it is all going to end up in a heap, because of their crass opportunism.

It's worth remembering that not one single garda, teacher, nurse, etc. lost their job over the past 7-8 years and never had even the fear of losing their jobs hanging over them. That sort of insulation has to come at some sort of cost.

It's also worth remembering that the country is still not balancing the books

Arguing that people in the private sector lost jobs is fair enough, but that does not mean that others in the public service 'deserved' to lose their jobs as well. None of them deserved to lose their jobs.

The banks, property developers and the ECB screwed us.

Turning the argument into 'us and them' is as just another version of divide and rule.

[macdanger2]

But like everyone else they have suffered since the financial crash. And when you look at policing around the world, they are generally very good at what they do.

More than 90% of people, there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.
The government declared recovery, while still legally restricting the pay of certain people on the basis of an "emergency". Never going to end well. Learning lessons from the past, the government could have proposed some sort of rational basis for pay in the future, but instead they just decided to keep the emergency legislation going as long as possible so that they could give out goodies elsewhere. Now it is all going to end up in a heap, because of their crass opportunism.

It's worth remembering that not one single garda, teacher, nurse, etc. lost their job over the past 7-8 years and never had even the fear of losing their jobs hanging over them. That sort of insulation has to come at some sort of cost.

It's also worth remembering that the country is still not balancing the books

Arguing that people in the private sector lost jobs is fair enough, but that does not mean that others in the public service 'deserved' to lose their jobs as well. None of them deserved to lose their jobs.

The banks, property developers and the ECB screwed us.

Turning the argument into 'us and them' is as just another version of divide and rule.

Whinging about the ECB, banks, property developers, etc. is grand but what does it do to a) help balance the books or b) pay for wage increases? We need to address the reality of the world as it is now

If you work for a company that's making a loss and you go out on strike, what do you think will happen?

[Rossfan]

The State can't just disband its Police force and employ some sort of zero hour contract "special constables"

[muppet]

But like everyone else they have suffered since the financial crash. And when you look at policing around the world, they are generally very good at what they do.

More than 90% of people, there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.
The government declared recovery, while still legally restricting the pay of certain people on the basis of an "emergency". Never going to end well. Learning lessons from the past, the government could have proposed some sort of rational basis for pay in the future, but instead they just decided to keep the emergency legislation going as long as possible so that they could give out goodies elsewhere. Now it is all going to end up in a heap, because of their crass opportunism.

It's worth remembering that not one single garda, teacher, nurse, etc. lost their job over the past 7-8 years and never had even the fear of losing their jobs hanging over them. That sort of insulation has to come at some sort of cost.

It's also worth remembering that the country is still not balancing the books

Arguing that people in the private sector lost jobs is fair enough, but that does not mean that others in the public service 'deserved' to lose their jobs as well. None of them deserved to lose their jobs.

The banks, property developers and the ECB screwed us.

Turning the argument into 'us and them' is as just another version of divide and rule.

Whinging about the ECB, banks, property developers, etc. is grand but what does it do to a) help balance the books or b) pay for wage increases? We need to address the reality of the world as it is now

If you work for a company that's making a loss and you go out on strike, what do you think will happen?

Whinging about the public service etc is grand but......what does it do to balance the books or pay for wage increases?

We have completely failed to learn anything from the crash. None of the 3 Governments since have introduced a single piece of legislation to tackle the behaviour that led to the collapse of our economy.

The unions are organised and deal with your whinging about the public service but putting pressure on politicians.

No one is organised to deal with my whinging about the ECB and the banks. It will happen again.

[armaghniac]

But like everyone else they have suffered since the financial crash. And when you look at policing around the world, they are generally very good at what they do.

More than 90% of people, there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.
The government declared recovery, while still legally restricting the pay of certain people on the basis of an "emergency". Never going to end well. Learning lessons from the past, the government could have proposed some sort of rational basis for pay in the future, but instead they just decided to keep the emergency legislation going as long as possible so that they could give out goodies elsewhere. Now it is all going to end up in a heap, because of their crass opportunism.

It's worth remembering that not one single garda, teacher, nurse, etc. lost their job over the past 7-8 years and never had even the fear of losing their jobs hanging over them. That sort of insulation has to come at some sort of cost.


These people did not lose their jobs because there was continued demand for their services, not because they were 'insulated' in some political sense. And 15-20% pay cuts were definitely some sort of cost. That period should have ended now.

It's also worth remembering that the country is still not balancing the books

The country is choosing not to balance its books, money has been given away to various people and things like water are being given away. 

[macdanger2]

Whinging about the public service etc is grand but......what does it do to balance the books or pay for wage increases?

I'm not whinging about the public service but I am questioning the idea that public servants should be paid at least what they were in 2008 - speciofically armagniac's point that "there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.". If you want to call that whinging grand but not paying these increases all in one go helps in a very real sense to balance the books. Would you agree with full restoration of public service pay?

These people did not lose their jobs because there was continued demand for their services, not because they were 'insulated' in some political sense. And 15-20% pay cuts were definitely some sort of cost. That period should have ended now.

The country is choosing not to balance its books, money has been given away to various people and things like water are being given away. 

They were absolutely insulated from jobs cuts; as far as I'm aware there wasn't one single review into how numbers could be reduced in the public service. Unless you're trying to say that the public service is as lean as it can possibly be? That there are no departments where jobs that could have been cut? All of the unions made sure that their own fee-paying support base was protected and the politicians played along.

Completely agree that things like water should be paid for and there are ways in which the budget could be balanced but for me not immediate and full"restoration" of public service pay is something that would be way down the list.

For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the gardai, they were promised a pay review as part of the CP agreement and the govt failed to deliver it.

[seafoid]

Gardaí say only a big load of money will prevent a strike. GPA say they can do nothing.
It's a neoliberal system. The rules are you control your costs otherwise it hurts bonds. Bonds are sacred . That is why Anglo and AIB were so generously absorbed onto the books of the sovereign. If you don't control costs your bond costs go up.
If you don't like the rules you don't run a deficit.

[seafoid]

If we weren't paying interest on the bail outs, Anglo, Fingleton etc books would be in a surplus.

We are in a system where debt is revered. So if you play with debt you have to light holy candles for it.
If people lose faith in the ECB or the ECB just decides "f**k it let's have some inflation" interest rates could go a lot higher and the debt is massive because of the decisions that were made during the "bailout". Anglo and AIB cost 60bn. The thing is the Government won't decide. More powerful people will decide.

I agree with Muppet. It's going to happen again. And there is no spare sovereign balance sheet capacity or Pension fund to mop up the spills next time. 

If the Gardai get their way everyone else will be looking for money. Meanbwhile the UK is falling apart. SME exports to the UK are being hammered. The Government has not been up front with people. Neither have the media.

If it was a family, now is not the time for a new kitchen, darling.

[muppet]

Whinging about the public service etc is grand but......what does it do to balance the books or pay for wage increases?

I'm not whinging about the public service but I am questioning the idea that public servants should be paid at least what they were in 2008 - speciofically armagniac's point that "there are few groups now earning less than in 2008.". If you want to call that whinging grand but not paying these increases all in one go helps in a very real sense to balance the books. Would you agree with full restoration of public service pay?

These people did not lose their jobs because there was continued demand for their services, not because they were 'insulated' in some political sense. And 15-20% pay cuts were definitely some sort of cost. That period should have ended now.

The country is choosing not to balance its books, money has been given away to various people and things like water are being given away. 

They were absolutely insulated from jobs cuts; as far as I'm aware there wasn't one single review into how numbers could be reduced in the public service. Unless you're trying to say that the public service is as lean as it can possibly be? That there are no departments where jobs that could have been cut? All of the unions made sure that their own fee-paying support base was protected and the politicians played along.

Completely agree that things like water should be paid for and there are ways in which the budget could be balanced but for me not immediate and full"restoration" of public service pay is something that would be way down the list.

For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the gardai, they were promised a pay review as part of the CP agreement and the govt failed to deliver it.

But when others mention the ECB and Financial Crisis, it is 'whinging'?

Anyway.

Do I agree with a full restoration of pay? No but I would like to see a far more productive efficient PS. However that shouldn't be interpreted as a blanket statement saying they are all inefficient. You couldn't argue that, for example, junior doctors don't work hard.

Do I understand that the Government prioritised employment during the crisis (jobs which are fairly cheap for the State as most of the expense comes back as tax anyway)? Yes.

[seafoid]

I don't think it's whingeing. We  have to understand how the system works.

The ECB loaded all Anglo's mess onto the Irish people rather than resolving the company and paying debt holders from whatever money was left after all the losses were accounted for. That is how you do it at least cost for maximum efficiency.

But the Eurozone did not have the systems for that. Because they" thought it would never be needed". Or perhaps it was deliberate. 
And it still doesn't have them. 

So it will happen again. For sure. As sure as teenage girls will get pregnant.

What doesn't make it into the narrative is that about €60bn of the debt is because the Government ran deficits of €15 bn a year for 4 years to keep services going and keep paying Garda and Teacher salaries.

At some point that money has to be paid off.

The other thing is house prices. Noonan has decided to keep them high cos the banks still have loads of shit business on their books. It is easier to just keep young people out of the housing market than have to bail out AIB again.
But pre 2008 Gardai used to be able to buy property to boost their incomes. So they need to get back to that again , really.

And FG ran the last election of a platform of if you don't reelect us the economy will collapse 
The whole thing is a mess

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[armaghniac]

Do I agree with a full restoration of pay? No but I would like to see a far more productive efficient PS. However that shouldn't be interpreted as a blanket statement saying they are all inefficient. You couldn't argue that, for example, junior doctors don't work hard.

The problem is that efficiency in the public is never discussed. There is no intention either to eliminate poor productivity nor reward high productivity. For instance, in the Gardai the computer section is hugely understaffed, no doubt because these IT whizzkids have a lot of alternative employment opportunities and need to be paid the going rate. This hugely impacts on productivity in general, but nobody seems to think that this must be fixed forthwith. The health service is riddled with this kind of thing.

The debate is dysfunctional. People are mixing up labour market issues with public policies on taxation, welfare etc. So the payment of a higher salary to a Garda computer specialist is an "insult" to pensioners, when of course the analysis these people do would stop people robbing pensioners. And the payment of a higher salary to radiographers to stop them going to Australia is an "insult" to pensioners, although it means longer queues for old people in the health service.

In particular, the Gardai get ridiculous pensions at 50, there must be a model to pay a bit more while they are working and providing a more normal pension.

[Itchy]

No paperwork filled out for a day, that's all gardai do today. Big deal. Strike will make no difference to all the small towns of Ireland.

[muppet]

Do I agree with a full restoration of pay? No but I would like to see a far more productive efficient PS. However that shouldn't be interpreted as a blanket statement saying they are all inefficient. You couldn't argue that, for example, junior doctors don't work hard.

The problem is that efficiency in the public is never discussed. There is no intention either to eliminate poor productivity nor reward high productivity. For instance, in the Gardai the computer section is hugely understaffed, no doubt because these IT whizzkids have a lot of alternative employment opportunities and need to be paid the going rate. This hugely impacts on productivity in general, but nobody seems to think that this must be fixed forthwith. The health service is riddled with this kind of thing.

The debate is dysfunctional. People are mixing up labour market issues with public policies on taxation, welfare etc. So the payment of a higher salary to a Garda computer specialist is an "insult" to pensioners, when of course the analysis these people do would stop people robbing pensioners. And the payment of a higher salary to radiographers to stop them going to Australia is an "insult" to pensioners, although it means longer queues for old people in the health service.

In particular, the Gardai get ridiculous pensions at 50, there must be a model to pay a bit more while they are working and providing a more normal pension.

I agree.

Regarding pay, what would it have been worth to us to have had an expert in the Dept. of Finance to tell the gobsh*tes NOT to introduce a blanket bank guarantee? So I take your point on Gárda IT. If you pay peanuts etc., etc.

However there is still massive waste within the overall system. The inability to fire useless people is a problem. Doesn't really happen in the private sector, or if it does, that company suffers.

On the 'insult' to pensioners, that is party politics. No context and all soundbites. It is very bad these day because we have so many opposition leaders, all given time by the media. So one Government spokesperson is followed by an attack from FF, SF & AAA-PBP etc, spokespeople, making it sound like a consensus all the time. Often they are right, but most of the time it is petty politics.