Author Topic: Money, Dublin and the GAA  (Read 126399 times)

The Hill is Blue

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #450 on: September 24, 2017, 12:28:43 PM »


Keith Duggan in The Irish Times:

New-look Dublin have wiped the smile off the countryís face

Fifteen years ago, when there was heady talk of using the River Liffey to split Dublin into two North and South Dublin fortresses, among the voices expressing concern and outrage came a thoughtful observation by Tommy Lyons, who had the head-wrecking task of managing the Dubs at the time.

ďThe country by and large loves Dublin to be there or thereabouts but donít want them winning anything. They like to keep them in isolation and that is whatís happened. Thatís our tribal warfare and thatís what keeps the association thriving.Ē

He hit the nail on the head. In 2002, everyone agreed that the Dubs were indeed Ďbox officeí; guaranteed to pack Croke Park in the dog days of August and illuminating Dorset St with a blustery localised expectation. To national delight, they could usually be relied upon to crash and burn at some stage, allowing their flintier brethren from down the country to do the actual winning and speechifying.

In 2002, Dublin had been All-Ireland champions just once since Kevin Heffernanís swansong All-Ireland of 1983. The main point of the review committee was to make the capitalís burgeoning population more manageable for the GAA; the thinking was that handling a million-plus people was simply too many sandwiches for any one county board to make.

Using the dirty old river as a clean divide, it was possible to dream up a scenario in which there were two city teams.

ďPeople must remember that even if Dublin is split it will still be the two biggest counties in terms of its populationĒ said Peter Quinn, chair of the review.

Diarmuid Connolly was 15-years-old when that review came out. James McCarthy was 12. Neither teenager could have had much of a living memory reference to the notion of Dublin winning All-Irelands. The GAA and government rush to fund Dublin GAA had already begun. But you have to assume that by then, hundreds of volunteer coaching hours had already gone into the training of both Connolly and McCarthy and their peers.

In 2002, Connollyís club, St Vincentís, was locked in a time-trap. The club hadnít won a Dublin senior title since 1984. Whatever money was going into the development and future welfare of Dublin football didnít really matter to whoever it was in Vincentís that worked with the ten-year-old Connolly on developing the unblemished kicking technique that featured in Sundayís final.

And it is well documented that Paddy Christie, who was Dublinís full back in 2002, saw that nothing was happening to bring kids through in Ballymun so he took it on himself to organise underage training. Among the players that wandered along were Dean Rock, Philly McMahon and James McCarthy. Itís impossible to prove this, but there is a decent argument to be made that if those three players Ė just those three Ė decided Gaelic football wasnít for them, then Dublin would not have won any of its recent All-Irelands.

Lavish theatre

In 2002, Dublin beat Donegal in the All-Ireland quarter-final after a replay. There was a sense that the Dubs were going somewhere; that they were a coming force. But then they went and fell apart against Joe Kernanís fabulous Armagh side in the All-Ireland semi-final. That game was a vivid manifestation of the point that Lyons had made in January. Armagh had come along and made a bonfire of Dublin vanities and around the country, everybody loved it.

The Dubs were like this lavish theatre, providing the stadium, the pubs, the shady car-parking arrangements and the Greek chorus on the Hill. But when the pressure came, they cracked up.

They looked scared of Armagh; scared of their muscles and scared of their ambition. Armagh won and that segued into the Tyrone-Armagh era and in the subsequent years, the Dublin North and South idea was quietly shelved as a succession of counties delighted in giving the city boys from both sides of the river their comeuppance. And the country was just fine with this arrangement.

It could go on forever.

They canít really say this in Kerry but deep down, there must be a feeling in the Kingdom that they let the genie out of the bottle in that All-Ireland final of 2011. Dublinís enormous potential as an All-Ireland serial winner was there for everyone to see. But the more they failed, the more defined their role as glamorous losers seemed to be. Kerry didnít close out that game and the Dubs caught them with a late brilliant rush through the gates and since then, everything has changed.

The dominance of Dublin under Jim Gavin has led to a nationwide conclusion that the beast has finally been stirred. The population and heavy financial backing and corporate appeal have led to the mathematical equation of limitless All-Irelands in their future.

But that possible future diminishes the achievement of this yearís team. Also, there is a nagging sense that if you take out just a handful of people from the Dublin GAA scene just now Ė Jim Gavin, Pat Gilroy, John Costello, Stephen Cluxton, McCarthy and Connolly Ė they simply wonít be replaced. Not Ďtake outí in a Tony Soprano sense but just imagine Dublin without their on-field and off-field influences and maybe the big monster doesnít look quite as scary; maybe the composure piece doesnít look quite as composed.

It could well be that Dublin will go on to complete a five-in-a-row. And it stands to reason that if such a densely populated county improves its city coaching structure so that the best 30 kids every year are identified and given the best training and funnelled through so that two or maybe three progress to the Dublin senior squad, then they should be a perpetual force; should quickly catch Kerryís all-time horde of All-Irelands and realise their potential as the most dominant team in the country.

The fear that the GAA has created something beyond its control may well be proven true. And in the future years, it could be borne out that no other county can live with the best that Dublin offer.

But right now, in 2017, this Dublin team has emerged from a culture of falling short to national delight. They have turned it around. There are nameless people all over the city who will believe that the unpaid hours they gave to Cian OíSullivan or to Cluxton or to Eoghan OíGara have, in a small intangible way, contributed to this dynastic run.

So Dublin are no longer there or thereabouts. Dublin are there to stay. Nobody seems sure how to respond. Splitting the county should no more be an option in Dublin than it is for Kerry. The lure of the GAA is playing for your county, not playing for half of it.

So now, the GAA needs a strategic review to offer solutions as to how to at least keep the illusion of a national competition alive. A quick glance at the provincial and national winners scroll shows that nothing has really changed. Laois have won a single Leinster senior championship since 1945. Louth have not won in Leinster since 1957, Wexford since 1945 and Offaly since 1997.

Their fortunes have not been affected by Dublinís surge. It was always Dublinís world: they just didnít know it. All that has happened in the last five years is that Dublin have gotten serious and nobody is laughing now.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 12:32:07 PM by The Hill is Blue »
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magpie seanie

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #451 on: September 25, 2017, 10:02:41 PM »
Dublin has a massive population and hence more potential than any county in Ireland. However this needs to be harnessed and Dublin over the last couple of decades have made massive strides in this regard.

I look at our own situation in Belfast where we have a relatively large urban population that is not being exploited to anywhere near the extent Dublin is.

Finance would be a massive step but it is not the full journey. It takes organisation, commitment and vision among other things and Dublin deserve massive credit in this regard.

Surely the ultimate goal is to have as many young people participate in Gaelic games with success being a by product of this. I wpuld rather see Dublin dominate than have their massive population disengaged with the games.


Absolutely. The Sam Maguire is only one competition in the GAA. It's the highest profile and possibly the only one a lot of fans care about. i'd suggest the priorities of those people are misplaced. Get into your clubs and follow your underage and adult teams. Loads of enjoyment to be had.

From the Bunker

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #452 on: September 25, 2017, 11:34:27 PM »


Keith Duggan in The Irish Times:

New-look Dublin have wiped the smile off the countryís face

Fifteen years ago, when there was heady talk of using the River Liffey to split Dublin into two North and South Dublin fortresses, among the voices expressing concern and outrage came a thoughtful observation by Tommy Lyons, who had the head-wrecking task of managing the Dubs at the time.

ďThe country by and large loves Dublin to be there or thereabouts but donít want them winning anything. They like to keep them in isolation and that is whatís happened. Thatís our tribal warfare and thatís what keeps the association thriving.Ē

He hit the nail on the head. In 2002, everyone agreed that the Dubs were indeed Ďbox officeí; guaranteed to pack Croke Park in the dog days of August and illuminating Dorset St with a blustery localised expectation. To national delight, they could usually be relied upon to crash and burn at some stage, allowing their flintier brethren from down the country to do the actual winning and speechifying.

In 2002, Dublin had been All-Ireland champions just once since Kevin Heffernanís swansong All-Ireland of 1983. The main point of the review committee was to make the capitalís burgeoning population more manageable for the GAA; the thinking was that handling a million-plus people was simply too many sandwiches for any one county board to make.

Using the dirty old river as a clean divide, it was possible to dream up a scenario in which there were two city teams.

ďPeople must remember that even if Dublin is split it will still be the two biggest counties in terms of its populationĒ said Peter Quinn, chair of the review.

Diarmuid Connolly was 15-years-old when that review came out. James McCarthy was 12. Neither teenager could have had much of a living memory reference to the notion of Dublin winning All-Irelands. The GAA and government rush to fund Dublin GAA had already begun. But you have to assume that by then, hundreds of volunteer coaching hours had already gone into the training of both Connolly and McCarthy and their peers.

In 2002, Connollyís club, St Vincentís, was locked in a time-trap. The club hadnít won a Dublin senior title since 1984. Whatever money was going into the development and future welfare of Dublin football didnít really matter to whoever it was in Vincentís that worked with the ten-year-old Connolly on developing the unblemished kicking technique that featured in Sundayís final.

And it is well documented that Paddy Christie, who was Dublinís full back in 2002, saw that nothing was happening to bring kids through in Ballymun so he took it on himself to organise underage training. Among the players that wandered along were Dean Rock, Philly McMahon and James McCarthy. Itís impossible to prove this, but there is a decent argument to be made that if those three players Ė just those three Ė decided Gaelic football wasnít for them, then Dublin would not have won any of its recent All-Irelands.

Lavish theatre

In 2002, Dublin beat Donegal in the All-Ireland quarter-final after a replay. There was a sense that the Dubs were going somewhere; that they were a coming force. But then they went and fell apart against Joe Kernanís fabulous Armagh side in the All-Ireland semi-final. That game was a vivid manifestation of the point that Lyons had made in January. Armagh had come along and made a bonfire of Dublin vanities and around the country, everybody loved it.

The Dubs were like this lavish theatre, providing the stadium, the pubs, the shady car-parking arrangements and the Greek chorus on the Hill. But when the pressure came, they cracked up.

They looked scared of Armagh; scared of their muscles and scared of their ambition. Armagh won and that segued into the Tyrone-Armagh era and in the subsequent years, the Dublin North and South idea was quietly shelved as a succession of counties delighted in giving the city boys from both sides of the river their comeuppance. And the country was just fine with this arrangement.

It could go on forever.

They canít really say this in Kerry but deep down, there must be a feeling in the Kingdom that they let the genie out of the bottle in that All-Ireland final of 2011. Dublinís enormous potential as an All-Ireland serial winner was there for everyone to see. But the more they failed, the more defined their role as glamorous losers seemed to be. Kerry didnít close out that game and the Dubs caught them with a late brilliant rush through the gates and since then, everything has changed.

The dominance of Dublin under Jim Gavin has led to a nationwide conclusion that the beast has finally been stirred. The population and heavy financial backing and corporate appeal have led to the mathematical equation of limitless All-Irelands in their future.

But that possible future diminishes the achievement of this yearís team. Also, there is a nagging sense that if you take out just a handful of people from the Dublin GAA scene just now Ė Jim Gavin, Pat Gilroy, John Costello, Stephen Cluxton, McCarthy and Connolly Ė they simply wonít be replaced. Not Ďtake outí in a Tony Soprano sense but just imagine Dublin without their on-field and off-field influences and maybe the big monster doesnít look quite as scary; maybe the composure piece doesnít look quite as composed.

It could well be that Dublin will go on to complete a five-in-a-row. And it stands to reason that if such a densely populated county improves its city coaching structure so that the best 30 kids every year are identified and given the best training and funnelled through so that two or maybe three progress to the Dublin senior squad, then they should be a perpetual force; should quickly catch Kerryís all-time horde of All-Irelands and realise their potential as the most dominant team in the country.

The fear that the GAA has created something beyond its control may well be proven true. And in the future years, it could be borne out that no other county can live with the best that Dublin offer.

But right now, in 2017, this Dublin team has emerged from a culture of falling short to national delight. They have turned it around. There are nameless people all over the city who will believe that the unpaid hours they gave to Cian OíSullivan or to Cluxton or to Eoghan OíGara have, in a small intangible way, contributed to this dynastic run.

So Dublin are no longer there or thereabouts. Dublin are there to stay. Nobody seems sure how to respond. Splitting the county should no more be an option in Dublin than it is for Kerry. The lure of the GAA is playing for your county, not playing for half of it.

So now, the GAA needs a strategic review to offer solutions as to how to at least keep the illusion of a national competition alive. A quick glance at the provincial and national winners scroll shows that nothing has really changed. Laois have won a single Leinster senior championship since 1945. Louth have not won in Leinster since 1957, Wexford since 1945 and Offaly since 1997.

Their fortunes have not been affected by Dublinís surge. It was always Dublinís world: they just didnít know it. All that has happened in the last five years is that Dublin have gotten serious and nobody is laughing now.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:36:35 PM by From the Bunker »

Zulu

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #453 on: September 26, 2017, 12:35:14 PM »
Do you assume otherwise? Do you assume Connolly at 15 was only average and that he was immediately put on a lavishly funded programme to turn him into Ireland's best footballer?

Syferus

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #454 on: September 26, 2017, 03:09:43 PM »
Do you assume otherwise? Do you assume Connolly at 15 was only average and that he was immediately put on a lavishly funded programme to turn him into Ireland's best footballer?

Dublin Defence Force Zulu has been activated..

From the Bunker

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #455 on: September 26, 2017, 04:04:40 PM »
Do you assume otherwise? Do you assume Connolly at 15 was only average and that he was immediately put on a lavishly funded programme to turn him into Ireland's best footballer?

I assume D.C. was a talent and was properly coached and moulded. I more than assume that this more and more happened to players younger than him. Do you think these talents are just falling out f the sky? That money has no bearing?

Dinny Breen

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #456 on: September 26, 2017, 04:55:46 PM »
Do you assume otherwise? Do you assume Connolly at 15 was only average and that he was immediately put on a lavishly funded programme to turn him into Ireland's best footballer?

I assume D.C. was a talent and was properly coached and moulded. I more than assume that this more and more happened to players younger than him. Do you think these talents are just falling out f the sky? That money has no bearing?

natural talent and volunteerism just a once twice in a lifetime generation
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Rossfan

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #457 on: September 26, 2017, 05:15:49 PM »
Do you assume otherwise? Do you assume Connolly at 15 was only average and that he was immediately put on a lavishly funded programme to turn him into Ireland's best footballer?

Dublin Defence Force Zulu

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Hound

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #458 on: September 27, 2017, 12:37:25 PM »

Quote
But then Dublin went and fell apart against Joe Kernanís fabulous Armagh side in the All-Ireland semi-final. That game was a vivid manifestation of the point that Lyons had made in January. Armagh had come along and made a bonfire of Dublin vanities and around the country, everybody loved it.

The Dubs were like this lavish theatre, providing the stadium, the pubs, the shady car-parking arrangements and the Greek chorus on the Hill. But when the pressure came, they cracked up.


This type of utter nonsense used to really get to me, and these days Mayo often get similar nonsense thrown at them.

That All Ireland semi final in 2002 was a very exciting game played between two evenly matched teams. A game that could have gone either way, the width of the post the difference between a draw and a 1 point Armagh win. They scored 1 point more, thus Armagh deserved their win. But Armagh were described as "fabulous" and the Dubs "fell apart"!
 

Lar Naparka

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #459 on: September 28, 2017, 11:31:30 AM »
If the GAA want more big Counties being competitive with Dublin then money needs to go into Belfast/Antrim, Louth,Wicklow and dare we say Kildare and Meath.
Those 5 should be around the same standard as Mayowestros and Donegal/Tyrone based on population figures. In all probability they have higher percentages of under 25s.
Cork occasionally and Kerry usually will also compete for AIs.
As for the rest of us in the little Counties.......occasional appearances in Super 8s will be our lot with the odd Connacht or Ulster title thrown in.
Sadly.
Just spotted this now.
 A while ago, 3 or 4 months, I can't be sure, the GAA did announce that extra funding would be allocated to Meath and Kildare also. The idea was to help cater for their rapidly growing populations but there was litle or no public reaction to this announcement.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

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Zulu

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #461 on: October 14, 2017, 09:55:03 PM »
That's exactly what the GAA should be doing, identifying areas of growth and funding the process of turning potential into reality.

Syferus

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #462 on: October 14, 2017, 10:04:24 PM »
That's exactly what the GAA should be doing, identifying areas of growth and funding the process of turning potential into reality.

Every area is an area of potential growth compared to the money being pumped into Dublin. If your idea of a response to a massive disadvantage is to create others, you have a serious flaw in your logic.

You canít make a song with one note, Zulu.

Zulu

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #463 on: October 14, 2017, 10:37:00 PM »
That's exactly what the GAA should be doing, identifying areas of growth and funding the process of turning potential into reality.

Every area is an area of potential growth compared to the money being pumped into Dublin. If your idea of a response to a massive disadvantage is to create others, you have a serious flaw in your logic.

You canít make a song with one note, Zulu.

For the love of Christ. Are you saying the GAA shouldn't fund the growth of the GAA in areas line Dundalk where it can expand? What are you arguing? Are you saying we shouldn't fund the growth of any urban area as that will leave rural, smaller areas behind? You give out a whole lot but I see no alternatives from you.

Dinny Breen

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #464 on: October 15, 2017, 08:47:27 AM »
That's exactly what the GAA should be doing, identifying areas of growth and funding the process of turning potential into reality.

Every area is an area of potential growth compared to the money being pumped into Dublin. If your idea of a response to a massive disadvantage is to create others, you have a serious flaw in your logic.

You canít make a song with one note, Zulu.

For the love of Christ. Are you saying the GAA shouldn't fund the growth of the GAA in areas line Dundalk where it can expand? What are you arguing? Are you saying we shouldn't fund the growth of any urban area as that will leave rural, smaller areas behind? You give out a whole lot but I see no alternatives from you.

Has the millions in funding grown the game in Dublin? I don't know btw but anecdotally I don't see new clubs being formed every year, introducing kids to GAA or any sport in schools is great but how do you transition those kids to clubs? 
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