Author Topic: Money, Dublin and the GAA  (Read 126885 times)

blast05

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #330 on: September 19, 2017, 12:22:04 PM »
Yeah and Tony McEntee is with Mayo for the love of the game. Give me a break, they spend the most on Senior football preparations and they have and spend so much money they can afford to throw away expensive GPS units.

Anyway, Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.

Can you send me a link to the Dublin accounts that gives a break down in their spend ? .... its freely available for Mayo.
Yes, Mayo spent more in 2016 (presuming the unpublished Dubs accounts are believable) albeit ~580K was on travel expenses. Dubs could only have spent a small fraction of that on travel money (but of course i can't check to confirm)...... and yee didn't have a junior team in an All-Ireland final, nor U-21's getting to and winning that final, nor hotel expenses for the many trips to Dublin, etc, etc

Dinny Breen

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #331 on: September 19, 2017, 12:54:09 PM »
Amazes me how some people just don't know or don't want to know how talent identity, talent development, elite development and elite preparation works in sport. Sport is a multi-billion euro industry, if winning is somehow just left to culture and wanting it more then someone somewhere is wasting an awful lot money .


Well what are Mayo doing that no one else is doing? Surely Mayo do not have greater resources or playing numbers that Kildare or Meath? And they've drawn twice and lost by a point 2 times in the last 4 years with Dublin, i.e. they're not only competitive an odd day, they're able to match Dublin all the time.

You do have a point to a degree but only to a degree. In the end only 15 players are on the field. If it was 30 a side (on a pitch twice the size, indulge me for the sake of argument!!!) Dublin would win 10 in a row, or more. They might have 40-50 players that are intercounty standard but all you need is 25.

Firstly I think it's important to stop looking at Dublin "only" won by a point, whether it's one point or 20 points Dublin have still won and will keep winning. Dublin are not outcome orientated, it's becoming a cliche but they are very much process orientated. I think these 1 point defeats are giving people false hope and "what if" scenarios that never get applied to the winners. When Dublin start losing successive games by a point I will have hope. And remember next year if the get caught out in the Super 8 they will still have a 2nd chance.

To address your question, why have Mayo succeeded in being competitive where Kildare/Meath your examples have not.  The simple answer is Mayo play in a Province where it's possible to win one game and find yourself in the last 12 so when it comes to planning etc that helps, it's another GAA inequality, this time in Connacht's favour. Mayo have also invested heavily in elite preparation, McEntee, Solan, Buckley, Brosnihan, Horan etc also they have that elite culture for years as developed by James Horan who used Cian O'Neill Kieran Shannon among others. They spent well on physical, technical, tactical and mental coaches. Kildare and Meath until recently were shambles, Kildare because we had no money and Meath through poor managerial appointments and poor support from the County Boards.  Through this period Mayo have retained Division 1 status, a massive advantage over Kildare/Meath (thanks Jason), this helps develop players, they also have an experienced leadership group led by Moran and Higgins. So currently Mayo have an elite culture, this takes years to develop and is costly to fund especially when a large portion of your squad works away from home. Now something Mayo don't have to deal with is they don't have the behemoth on their door step, they don't have to contest the same provincial championship. Dublin have won 11 of last 12 Leinster titles, think SPL, it kills the sport, I would say anecdotally attendances are down year on year, 12K watched Kildare v Meath, the smallest championship crowd that I can ever remember between those two teams. That was a regular 40K + crowd at CP. Like I said before take Dublin place them in Ulster/Connacht and perhaps even Munster and watch those provincial competitions go the same way, teams get less competitive, confidence drains and the competition dies.



     

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #332 on: September 19, 2017, 01:07:39 PM »
Kildare and Meath until recently were shambles, Kildare because we had no money and Meath through poor managerial appointments and poor support from the County Boards.
For how many years in the last quarter century have Kildare not had money?

AZOffaly

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #333 on: September 19, 2017, 01:14:53 PM »
I think at senior level teams like Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone are investing heavily to keep treading water in the race to be second to Dublin. At senior level especially, you can invest a load of money to try get the same sort of backroom team, support staff etc as Dublin, and then on any given day it's 15 v 15, or 21 v 21, and you might catch Dublin if you are one of those sort of teams.

There's nothing to stop Galway, Tipperary, Armagh, Donegal or whomever finding a sugar daddy and investing massive money on a senior team and having a good 3 to 5 year spell.

The fact that this can, and does, happen allows people to say 'Look, Mayo ran Dublin to a point', or 'Kerry beat them in the league' etc. But that is not sustainable.

What is sustainable is investing heavily in coaching and structures, and then supplementing that with near professional approach when those lads come off the conveyor belt. That is what Dublin have, and the annual money they are receiving and using very well, goes a long way to allowing them to do that.

I don't begrudge Dublin their population advantages. I don't begrudge them Croke Park. I don't begrudge them the large employment market on their doorsteps. They are all advantage, sure, but they are inherent advantages that make the Dubs the Dubs and have always been there.

My issue is the GAA making a conscious effort those years ago to give Dublin a long term competitive advantage, in the name of fending off soccer and rugby. In doing so, they allowed Dublin the opportunity to fully exploit those natural advantages, and to be fair to them they have done a brilliant job of it.

Simply speaking, other counties (with the possible exception of Kerry), are having to decide on whether they invest the money they have into trying to keep up with the Dub seniors, or investing in their own coaching and games development.

If the GAA allocated a per person coaching and games grant, across the country, then at least you could say they are not handing an advantage to Dublin. An advantage they don't need in my opinion. The setup in Dublin is brilliant. The clubs are huge and booming. And I think they'd be booming without the 1.3 million or whatever every year.

The damage in the short term is done, in my opinion. And dressing up the championship as a Super 8 or whatever is not going to reverse the damage without having some sort of plan for the rest of the country like they did for Dublin back in the day. There's rugby and soccer in other counties as well, and Summer soccer is coming. So if the GAA is interested in other counties being competitive, they are going to have to help out in a more meaningful way, just like they did with the Dubs.

None of this should be seen as anti Dub by the way, it's just anti competitive imbalance.

vallankumous

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #334 on: September 19, 2017, 01:20:46 PM »
A bigger problem is the drop out rate at senior level outside Dublin.
All teams compete at underage as all players live within the county and don't have the pressures that come with adulthood. This is not something the GAA did, it's part of the changing economic circumstances. The GAA however have done nothing to stop the drop out rate. Playing senior club football is now too difficult to sustain for many people. The demands on the field, off the field, with fixtures are all scary prospect to young people starting their life in work or starting a family.

AZOffaly

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #335 on: September 19, 2017, 01:34:26 PM »
A bigger problem is the drop out rate at senior level outside Dublin.
All teams compete at underage as all players live within the county and don't have the pressures that come with adulthood. This is not something the GAA did, it's part of the changing economic circumstances. The GAA however have done nothing to stop the drop out rate. Playing senior club football is now too difficult to sustain for many people. The demands on the field, off the field, with fixtures are all scary prospect to young people starting their life in work or starting a family.

That's true. I actually flagged this back in 1998!!! On a thread on the old GAABoard I worried about the future of club football and hurling at senior level as demands became more and more intrusive on club players.

It's a tricky one though. Fixtures can be solved with a bit of effort I think, but the commitment issue is a harder one to fix. If you want to win, the bar has been raised, and anyone who gives less is automatically behind the curve. You might end up with a whole country of junior club footballers and hurlers. Junior club is probably at a similar level as senior club was in the early 90s.

Rossfan

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #336 on: September 19, 2017, 01:36:38 PM »
Excellent post by AZ  earlier.
 GAA HQ should be looking at the crisis of 3 Eastern Counties with big populations 2 of whom spend most of their time in Div 4 and the other not much higher.
Antrim (est Nationalist pop 200k+), Louth 128,884 and Wicklow 142,425.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

GalwayBayBoy

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #337 on: September 19, 2017, 01:46:26 PM »
Amazes me how some people just don't know or don't want to know how talent identity, talent development, elite development and elite preparation works in sport. Sport is a multi-billion euro industry, if winning is somehow just left to culture and wanting it more then someone somewhere is wasting an awful lot money .


Well what are Mayo doing that no one else is doing?

I don't think Mayo are doing anything revolutionary in their system to be honest. Galway and Roscommon have been dominant at underage in Connacht for a good few years now for example. I think they just have a great crop of players together currently (with size and athleticism) and some very good coaching to bring it all together. Mayo are not short on a few bob to spend on preparation of the senior team either compared to most other counties. The team probably has a shelf-life at the very top to but to be fair to them they seem to come back every year so far. One year it'll end but they are getting a hell of a run from the current bunch.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 01:51:37 PM by GalwayBayBoy »

blast05

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #338 on: September 19, 2017, 01:46:51 PM »
Quote
The simple answer is Mayo play in a Province where it's possible to win one game and find yourself in the last 12

Not in past 2 years

magpie seanie

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #339 on: September 19, 2017, 01:59:23 PM »
Amazes me how some people just don't know or don't want to know how talent identity, talent development, elite development and elite preparation works in sport. Sport is a multi-billion euro industry, if winning is somehow just left to culture and wanting it more then someone somewhere is wasting an awful lot money .


Well what are Mayo doing that no one else is doing? Surely Mayo do not have greater resources or playing numbers that Kildare or Meath? And they've drawn twice and lost by a point 2 times in the last 4 years with Dublin, i.e. they're not only competitive an odd day, they're able to match Dublin all the time.

You do have a point to a degree but only to a degree. In the end only 15 players are on the field. If it was 30 a side (on a pitch twice the size, indulge me for the sake of argument!!!) Dublin would win 10 in a row, or more. They might have 40-50 players that are intercounty standard but all you need is 25.

Firstly I think it's important to stop looking at Dublin "only" won by a point, whether it's one point or 20 points Dublin have still won and will keep winning. Dublin are not outcome orientated, it's becoming a cliche but they are very much process orientated. I think these 1 point defeats are giving people false hope and "what if" scenarios that never get applied to the winners. When Dublin start losing successive games by a point I will have hope. And remember next year if the get caught out in the Super 8 they will still have a 2nd chance.

To address your question, why have Mayo succeeded in being competitive where Kildare/Meath your examples have not.  The simple answer is Mayo play in a Province where it's possible to win one game and find yourself in the last 12 so when it comes to planning etc that helps, it's another GAA inequality, this time in Connacht's favour. Mayo have also invested heavily in elite preparation, McEntee, Solan, Buckley, Brosnihan, Horan etc also they have that elite culture for years as developed by James Horan who used Cian O'Neill Kieran Shannon among others. They spent well on physical, technical, tactical and mental coaches. Kildare and Meath until recently were shambles, Kildare because we had no money and Meath through poor managerial appointments and poor support from the County Boards.  Through this period Mayo have retained Division 1 status, a massive advantage over Kildare/Meath (thanks Jason), this helps develop players, they also have an experienced leadership group led by Moran and Higgins. So currently Mayo have an elite culture, this takes years to develop and is costly to fund especially when a large portion of your squad works away from home. Now something Mayo don't have to deal with is they don't have the behemoth on their door step, they don't have to contest the same provincial championship. Dublin have won 11 of last 12 Leinster titles, think SPL, it kills the sport, I would say anecdotally attendances are down year on year, 12K watched Kildare v Meath, the smallest championship crowd that I can ever remember between those two teams. That was a regular 40K + crowd at CP. Like I said before take Dublin place them in Ulster/Connacht and perhaps even Munster and watch those provincial competitions go the same way, teams get less competitive, confidence drains and the competition dies.



   


Dinny - good reply and I appreciate the detail. I'd accept a lot of that and I don't know the lie of the land in Kildare and Meath and that's why I asked.

Mayo being in Connacht isn't really the benefit you portray it to be. The last two seasons, possibly the two finals they've performed best in, they went out of Connacht early with a whimper. They then proceeded to struggle to teams that Kildare or Meath would probably beat before finally kicking into gear. So to my mind Mayo don't see Connacht as a benefit at all. They don't seem bothered by it. I think the provincial championships are all dead or dying anyway, even Ulster isn't as good as it once was. Only the hope of a provincial title keeps many counties going which I accept many in Leinster do not even have now.

Essentially your answer on Kildare and Meath is that they have been very poorly run county boards. Decent coaching structures, development squads etc can be put in place relatively inexpensively. I agreed with the GAA's funding of Dublin's coaching plan. I believe the same needs to be done in the surrounding counties now. They need to get their act together and develop a workable plan and demand funding. I believe that's possible but I'd be very aware of the challenges.

Orchard park

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #340 on: September 19, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »
good solid points Magpie.

most counties are using a cheap excuse of dublin having too much money. The piopulation imbalance may be growingh a  bit but i would guessthe proportion of playing adults in dublin compared to Sligo or roscommon is little different to 40 years ago

GalwayBayBoy

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #341 on: September 19, 2017, 03:12:18 PM »
good solid points Magpie.

most counties are using a cheap excuse of dublin having too much money. The piopulation imbalance may be growingh a  bit but i would guessthe proportion of playing adults in dublin compared to Sligo or roscommon is little different to 40 years ago

Number of playing adults is not a good measure though IMO. I would say the massive explosion in Dublin has been in the number of playing kids with individual clubs capable of fielding numerous youth teams. And the more kids that come though the coaching system the more high quality playing adults you will eventually produce down the line.

Syferus

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #342 on: September 19, 2017, 03:13:44 PM »
good solid points Magpie.

most counties are using a cheap excuse of dublin having too much money. The piopulation imbalance may be growingh a  bit but i would guessthe proportion of playing adults in dublin compared to Sligo or roscommon is little different to 40 years ago

Don't be pulling stuff out of your arse - do you know much much the population of Dublin has increased since 1977? More people means more chances of finding a lad with the talent and the temperament for football. And the coaching the money brings with it means few exceptional talents slip through the cracks.

Also I see you're actually admitting Dublin have much more money now, albeit you're trying to downplay its significance.

There's two types of people on this issue, those willing to stick their heads in the sand and those who can see the rotten core of IC football.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 06:12:04 PM by Syferus »

Orchard park

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #343 on: September 19, 2017, 05:40:48 PM »
show me the facts Syferis about the proportion playing adult football now vs 40 years ago as you seem to know ... I am suggesting its proportionate to then but dont have the facts to prove it and neither was i ramming it down anyone's throat it was the caseo therwise dont go around accusing people who are engaging in constructive debate of taking out of their arses.

also seeing you know so much about dublin how much per player is the GAA centrally giving to Dublin as opposed to the per player contribution in other counties.......fair question if you can deal in hard facts as opposed to cheap lazy Ewan McKenna style unsubstantiated bollixoligy


and i stated others are using Dublin as having too much money as a cheap excuse for their own failings. Trump at his best couldn;t twist that one around like you have.........

anyways do you not have Junior cert grinds

trileacman

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Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« Reply #344 on: September 19, 2017, 05:49:18 PM »
A bigger problem is the drop out rate at senior level outside Dublin.
All teams compete at underage as all players live within the county and don't have the pressures that come with adulthood. This is not something the GAA did, it's part of the changing economic circumstances. The GAA however have done nothing to stop the drop out rate. Playing senior club football is now too difficult to sustain for many people. The demands on the field, off the field, with fixtures are all scary prospect to young people starting their life in work or starting a family.

That's true. I actually flagged this back in 1998!!! On a thread on the old GAABoard I worried about the future of club football and hurling at senior level as demands became more and more intrusive on club players.

It's a tricky one though. Fixtures can be solved with a bit of effort I think, but the commitment issue is a harder one to fix. If you want to win, the bar has been raised, and anyone who gives less is automatically behind the curve. You might end up with a whole country of junior club footballers and hurlers. Junior club is probably at a similar level as senior club was in the early 90s.

Your last sentence is bang on the money. Guys get disinterested as the stakes rise and there's dawn training sessions for half the year and a drink ban for the other half. Now that culture is irreversibl and I appreciate that it does breed high quality football but the "professionalism" today is really a double edged sword.
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