Catholic nonsense

[laoislad]

Another thread about religion. Just what the board needs.
There hasn't been one about Northern Ireland for a few days so someone should sort that out pronto.

[LCohen]

Joe

On morals..

If was given a work of fiction to review and in that work a character had the power to create and curate a world, to grant forgiveness of sin and grant eternal life and basically do anything they want and be aware of every thing and every thought in that world and that character inter alia:

• Asked someone to murder their own child to prove their belief in and reverence to them
  Asked for human sacrifice
  Did not intervene and allowed human sacrifice to go ahead
  Created his own son to be killed to achieve something that he could have achieved by other means
  Allowed the innocent to be the victims of pointless disease
  Created floods, droughts, meteors crashes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and storms to show his anger and vengeance
  

Then in my review I would contend that that character was devoid of any morals.

Would you review it differently or do you share my view on morals or whatever we are going to call them?

[manfromdelmonte]

Christianity is just a mish mash of other religious belief systems

I wouldn't get too worked up about it all

[No wides]

Ah come on God works in mysterious ways which basically transcribes to he gets credit if anything good happens and no responsibility for anything bad!

[BennyCake]

Mass is over. Go in peace.

Thanks be to God.

Indeed!

[No wides]

Another thread about religion. Just what the board needs.
There hasn't been one about Northern Ireland for a few days so someone should sort that out pronto.

More chance of there being a God than Liverpool being your team. 😃

[Lar Naparka]

What is exorcism about anyway? Is it schizophrenia or are there really demons sent by the devil, whoever that is ? Why would the devil attack someone in Co Monaghan, for example? Is it like computer viruses?

Pat McEnaney of course, who else?

[Hardy]

The Church does not change doctrine to align itself with fashion or popular opinion.

Why have hell, purgatory, limbo, indulgences, the Six Commandments of the Church, fast days, self flagellation, etc, disappeared from the narrative, then? Limbo officially abolished, I think and the others just not mentioned any more. What was the motivation for these changes, if not aligning with the zeitgeist? Unless there was some peer-reviewed research that discovered limbo didn't exist after all, like it was discovered that Pluto isn't a planet anymore?

I have no idea chief. I was only quoting what a priest once told me.

We would need a member of the clergy to answer these questions. Do you mind if I post these on a catholic church discussion board?

Fire away.

[omaghjoe]

The whole mercy thing. Why do we need mercy?  If we were born sinners because we came via vaginas and not the ether how is it our fault ?

Excellent point. Is the original sin thing exclusive to catholics or is the belief in it a wider chrisitian thing?

How do catholics justify it? Surely they know the garden of eden story is just a story? Without it where does orignal sin come from?

More importantly what was god doing impregnating a virgin (in a weird kind of way) to create a son, who was also him (in a weird kind of way involving a third spirity party) so that the son could be murdered (how fucked up is this shit??) so that we could be absolved (which apparently he could do anyway) of a sin that passes from a person that did not exist (and as the all seeing, all powerful creator he presumably knew this??).

The whole thing from premise to dogma to practice is batshit

You start from the notion that sex with women is very grubby and unworthy

And you build it from there
Even though that is how the species survives but never mind

God needed some kind of USP
So it had to be a Virgin birth

Seafoid,

Your just making things up again

Leonard,

Call it original sin, call it temptation, call it human nature, call it whatever you want. We have parts of our makeup that are contrary to what is good and right, such as selfishness, greed etc. We each have a choice whether or not to submit to them or take the moral path. Thats what original sin is for me, You dont have to Catholic to believe in it or Christian or even theist. Some people believe morals dont exist, tho  your second paragraph on Jesus would suggest you do since "shit is fucked up". So presuming you do believe in them perhaps you would explain what you believe they are and where they came from  and how we came about to have a choice in them?

How do you know its BS or do you just believe it is?

Joe

Are you saying that this what Catholicism teaches original sin is and that it has backed away from the garden of eden, scriptural base and the whole passing down the genetic line business? Or are you suggesting that catholics don't believe in catholicism or are you just telling us what you believe and the mass ranks of catholics (the subject matter of the thread) believe something else?

As for morals. Call them morals, ethics, an understanding of consequence and of rights and wrongs or whatever you want. There is very sound evidence that they exist and very good explanations as to where they come from that do not need a god as either the creator or the overseer. Empathy does not need a god but it can explain positive behaviours. Kinship doesn't need a god. It fits perfectly well with darwinism. Grouped societies have their basis in genetic groupings. Behaviours originally encouraged, valued and rewarded in genetic groupings are now established and encouraged, valued and rewarded in non-family groupings.

Nothing like an either/or fallacy to double up as a red herring, do try to stick to the point Leonard. Original sin comes from God, the Garden of Eden is accepted by the church that it was simply how the author understood how they came about, in other words a literary device. The source however remains the same. Despite what you might be alluding to the CC adheres to most of the prevailing theories of science and does not take large parts of the old testament to be (for want of better word) Gospel.


Are empathy and kinship morals? Morals deal with right and wrong? Respect and Loyalty might be the corresponding morals your looking for.
Tho it seems like your saying morals exist but that basically we just made them up for our own purposes and only adhere to them because of consequences, I cant speak for anyone else but thats not true for me at least. And by that definition  At risk of a slight tangent are you trying to tell me that morals genetically developed our brains to think that way? I dont think even the most optimistic biological anthropologist would adhere to that, tradition and culture would be their argument.

But anyway  I'll ask you again slightly differently as you seem to mixed morals up with actions and consequences... Do you believe right and wrong exist?

And for that matter do you believe the choice between right and wrong exists and if so how did that choice come about and for what end?

[seafoid]

The whole mercy thing. Why do we need mercy?  If we were born sinners because we came via vaginas and not the ether how is it our fault ?

Excellent point. Is the original sin thing exclusive to catholics or is the belief in it a wider chrisitian thing?

How do catholics justify it? Surely they know the garden of eden story is just a story? Without it where does orignal sin come from?

More importantly what was god doing impregnating a virgin (in a weird kind of way) to create a son, who was also him (in a weird kind of way involving a third spirity party) so that the son could be murdered (how fucked up is this shit??) so that we could be absolved (which apparently he could do anyway) of a sin that passes from a person that did not exist (and as the all seeing, all powerful creator he presumably knew this??).

The whole thing from premise to dogma to practice is batshit

You start from the notion that sex with women is very grubby and unworthy

And you build it from there
Even though that is how the species survives but never mind

God needed some kind of USP
So it had to be a Virgin birth

Seafoid,

Your just making things up again

Leonard,

Call it original sin, call it temptation, call it human nature, call it whatever you want. We have parts of our makeup that are contrary to what is good and right, such as selfishness, greed etc. We each have a choice whether or not to submit to them or take the moral path. Thats what original sin is for me, You dont have to Catholic to believe in it or Christian or even theist. Some people believe morals dont exist, tho  your second paragraph on Jesus would suggest you do since "shit is fucked up". So presuming you do believe in them perhaps you would explain what you believe they are and where they came from  and how we came about to have a choice in them?

How do you know its BS or do you just believe it is?

Joe

Are you saying that this what Catholicism teaches original sin is and that it has backed away from the garden of eden, scriptural base and the whole passing down the genetic line business? Or are you suggesting that catholics don't believe in catholicism or are you just telling us what you believe and the mass ranks of catholics (the subject matter of the thread) believe something else?

As for morals. Call them morals, ethics, an understanding of consequence and of rights and wrongs or whatever you want. There is very sound evidence that they exist and very good explanations as to where they come from that do not need a god as either the creator or the overseer. Empathy does not need a god but it can explain positive behaviours. Kinship doesn't need a god. It fits perfectly well with darwinism. Grouped societies have their basis in genetic groupings. Behaviours originally encouraged, valued and rewarded in genetic groupings are now established and encouraged, valued and rewarded in non-family groupings.

Nothing like an either/or fallacy to double up as a red herring, do try to stick to the point Leonard. Original sin comes from God, the Garden of Eden is accepted by the church that it was simply how the author understood how they came about, in other words a literary device. The source however remains the same. Despite what you might be alluding to the CC adheres to most of the prevailing theories of science and does not take large parts of the old testament to be (for want of better word) Gospel.


Are empathy and kinship morals? Morals deal with right and wrong? Respect and Loyalty might be the corresponding morals your looking for.
Tho it seems like your saying morals exist but that basically we just made them up for our own purposes and only adhere to them because of consequences, I cant speak for anyone else but thats not true for me at least. And by that definition  At risk of a slight tangent are you trying to tell me that morals genetically developed our brains to think that way? I dont think even the most optimistic biological anthropologist would adhere to that, tradition and culture would be their argument.

But anyway  I'll ask you again slightly differently as you seem to mixed morals up with actions and consequences... Do you believe right and wrong exist?

And for that matter do you believe the choice between right and wrong exists and if so how did that choice come about and for what end?

Original sin is about control. How can children have sin? What did they do wrong?

[omaghjoe]

Seafoid, One simple is that part of our nature is to be tempted by things, I believe we are born with it.

It couldn't really be considered a sin in a child until they understand and act upon it tho but it still with them up until that point

[seafoid]

Seafoid, One simple is that part of our nature is to be tempted by things, I believe we are born with it.

It couldn't really be considered a sin in a child until they understand and act upon it tho but it still with them up until that point

Joe I think our understanding of psychology has come on a good bit even since the 1980s.
Loading kids with feelings of guilt and blame is not good.
I think there is a coherent Christian world view that could emerge in the age of climate change and that it would be pretty different to the current version.

[omaghjoe]

Yeah lets teach them there is no right and wrong and they have no conscience, you work away with your kids on that and let us know when your ready for the mad house.

Would that be Neoliberal Climate Change? I can see how that can affect kids alright

[theskull1]

Do those who claim the RC church to be intrinsically moral, know anything of its history throughout the centuries?   

"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
― Søren Kierkegaard

[LCohen]

The whole mercy thing. Why do we need mercy?  If we were born sinners because we came via vaginas and not the ether how is it our fault ?

Excellent point. Is the original sin thing exclusive to catholics or is the belief in it a wider chrisitian thing?

How do catholics justify it? Surely they know the garden of eden story is just a story? Without it where does orignal sin come from?

More importantly what was god doing impregnating a virgin (in a weird kind of way) to create a son, who was also him (in a weird kind of way involving a third spirity party) so that the son could be murdered (how fucked up is this shit??) so that we could be absolved (which apparently he could do anyway) of a sin that passes from a person that did not exist (and as the all seeing, all powerful creator he presumably knew this??).

The whole thing from premise to dogma to practice is batshit

You start from the notion that sex with women is very grubby and unworthy

And you build it from there
Even though that is how the species survives but never mind

God needed some kind of USP
So it had to be a Virgin birth

Seafoid,

Your just making things up again

Leonard,

Call it original sin, call it temptation, call it human nature, call it whatever you want. We have parts of our makeup that are contrary to what is good and right, such as selfishness, greed etc. We each have a choice whether or not to submit to them or take the moral path. Thats what original sin is for me, You dont have to Catholic to believe in it or Christian or even theist. Some people believe morals dont exist, tho  your second paragraph on Jesus would suggest you do since "shit is fucked up". So presuming you do believe in them perhaps you would explain what you believe they are and where they came from  and how we came about to have a choice in them?

How do you know its BS or do you just believe it is?

Joe

Are you saying that this what Catholicism teaches original sin is and that it has backed away from the garden of eden, scriptural base and the whole passing down the genetic line business? Or are you suggesting that catholics don't believe in catholicism or are you just telling us what you believe and the mass ranks of catholics (the subject matter of the thread) believe something else?

As for morals. Call them morals, ethics, an understanding of consequence and of rights and wrongs or whatever you want. There is very sound evidence that they exist and very good explanations as to where they come from that do not need a god as either the creator or the overseer. Empathy does not need a god but it can explain positive behaviours. Kinship doesn't need a god. It fits perfectly well with darwinism. Grouped societies have their basis in genetic groupings. Behaviours originally encouraged, valued and rewarded in genetic groupings are now established and encouraged, valued and rewarded in non-family groupings.

Nothing like an either/or fallacy to double up as a red herring, do try to stick to the point Leonard. Original sin comes from God, the Garden of Eden is accepted by the church that it was simply how the author understood how they came about, in other words a literary device. The source however remains the same. Despite what you might be alluding to the CC adheres to most of the prevailing theories of science and does not take large parts of the old testament to be (for want of better word) Gospel.


Are empathy and kinship morals? Morals deal with right and wrong? Respect and Loyalty might be the corresponding morals your looking for.
Tho it seems like your saying morals exist but that basically we just made them up for our own purposes and only adhere to them because of consequences, I cant speak for anyone else but thats not true for me at least. And by that definition  At risk of a slight tangent are you trying to tell me that morals genetically developed our brains to think that way? I dont think even the most optimistic biological anthropologist would adhere to that, tradition and culture would be their argument.

But anyway  I'll ask you again slightly differently as you seem to mixed morals up with actions and consequences... Do you believe right and wrong exist?

And for that matter do you believe the choice between right and wrong exists and if so how did that choice come about and for what end?

Joe

Your argument is that human nature (or original sin) comes from God and that is in deed an argument. But what is it backed up by? What alternatives have been weighed up and what is your view on those?

I am fully aware that the catholic church and its members do not take most of the bible as literal truth. What bemuses me is the fact that the church and its members will tell people how to live their lives and condem harmless acts based upon a literal (or invented) reading of the bible which is at that point in time not a literary work but the undiluted word of god.

Empathy and kinship are not morals. I never argued that they were. They are however some of the sources of morality and you did ask where morals came from I apologise profusely for the confusion this has caused in your brain.

If you could revisit the posts and get your head around them then you will find the nonsense in the coda of your post