All Ireland Final Replay 1st October 2016 Dublin vs Mayo

[Fuzzman]

Aidan O'Shea scored 1.04 this year in 9 matches which for one of our top forwards in the country is very poor in my opinion. Saying that though I noticed Sean Cavanagh also only scored 7 points this year in 5 matches.
Everyone is singing Brian Fenton's praises but he has only managed 3 points in 7 games whereas Kilkenny managed 5 points all year.

I thought AoS played well against Tyrone but besides that I didn't think he stood out in any of the other games.
I think he would have done better from MF in the final. It is no coincidence that Ryan McHugh and Peter Harte kick a lot of scores whilst being named at wing back. If Mayo could release Keegan more like they did for his goal they would get a lot more scores I believe.

[muppet]

MM do you really think many Mayo supporters would swap 26 year old Dean Rock for 24 year old Cillian? 

If we had 6 forwards who were kept scoreless from play for as long as the Dubs were we would be ridiculed from all quarters. But when the reverse occurs we are told to dump our lot and import the Dubs?

I think it's certainly true that Mayo get undue criticism from people about their forwards, however it is also true, in my opinion, that Mayo people have a very defensive attitude to criticism of the forwards, and maybe more pertinently their forward play in general. There is absolutely a lack of top quality, either individually or as a collective, in the forwards and that is what has, in my opinion, stopped them from taking that final step. Cillian O'Connor is a fine player, but if Paul Geaney was born in Mayo rather than Kerry, Mayo would probably have won by now. Or James O'Donoghue, or maybe even Michael Quinlivan or young Comer from Galway.

It's certainly not bottle, or fitness, or even defensive tactics that are causing them to lose, I think it's just that small bit of extra quality which is missing.

What is usually missing, is proper analysis. Usually it is' a lack of bottle' that is thrown at us, as a lazy stereotype. In fairness you ruled that out. Think Joe Brolly and his 'lazy celebrity' crap.

Regarding the Dubs, Paul Flynn and BB have been two of the best forwards of their respective types, that I have seen. But I wouldn't take them now. Mannion (24) and Costello (22) look good prospects, but do we throw away Diarmuid O'Connor (21), Evan Regan (23)  and Conor Loftus (21) for them?  I'd say neutrals wouldn't be sure about that, never mind Mayo fans.

Anyone would take Connolly, but not with his form against us. Kilkenny would obviously be very desirable, but would we swap AOS? McLoughlin is a big favourite with Mayo fans (I don't like seeing him as a sweeper) but I can't see Mayo fans willing to trade him either.

After 160 mins there was no more than a kick of a ball, a player's mistake or a referee's decision in it, depending on who you listen to. What wasn't the difference (read the thread above), imho, was that one set of forwards were world class, while the others set should be scrapped. Of course Mayo fans will be defensive when we read that sort of lazy analysis.

[AZOffaly]

I think you're over reacting. Or at least that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there some spark missing up there, and it might be individual players, or it might be a pattern of play. To be honest, given how close ye are, it might actually be the latter. For example, throwing Aidan O'Shea in at full forward the last couple of years, and then patently having no clue how to use him was very frustrating as a neutral looking in. I can't imagine how Mayo lads looked at it. Same with Barry Moran this year. But even if you accept that is plan 'B', and may not be slick, to my mind even Plan A looks laboured. If ye could speed up your attacks, and get lads like O'Connor on the ball in good shooting areas more often, then that would probably do it. Alternatively, if ye replace Evan Regan, or Conor Loftus, with James O'Donoghue, Paul Geaney, or even someone like Paddy Andrews, I think that would push ye over the edge even with the more deliberate build up play.

Ye have to play with the resources ye have, and to my mind that means ye have to just improve your transition game slightly. You need movement, you need pace, and you need direct running and/or kick passing. If you have that, then the forwards you have look better. If you don't have that, then you need more top class forwards to compensate.

It's figuratively a matter of inches with Mayo, and this is where the shortfall is, in my opinion. Everything else is spot on, even allowing for human error.

[macdanger2]

I think you're correct on the piece about the build up play - both team in the final were laboured getting into scoring positions. Once the ball is recycled and slowed down, only the very best forwards can dig out a shot against top backs - Connolly, Geaney and maybe one or two others. If you speed up the build up, it makes it easier to score since you have more space, that's probably what Mayo need to work on rather than hoping to turn up a superstar from somewhere

[muppet]

My post wasn't meant to be seen as disagreeing with you Az, it was more taking on a serious of points made from different posters.

I would agree with you overall though. We sacrifice a lot by putting Keegan man to man and by keeping McLoughlin and also Higgins in defence. Our running game is as good as there is, and I think the various blankets would have to push up to meet Keegan, Durcan, Vaughan and Higgins if we were launching them enough. This would leave space elsewhere behind. The key to this is balance and key players knowing when to carry and when to play it inside accurately.

I actually think we gave to Dubs too much respect at times.

[Jinxy]

MM do you really think many Mayo supporters would swap 26 year old Dean Rock for 24 year old Cillian? 

If we had 6 forwards who were kept scoreless from play for as long as the Dubs were we would be ridiculed from all quarters. But when the reverse occurs we are told to dump our lot and import the Dubs?

I think it's certainly true that Mayo get undue criticism from people about their forwards, however it is also true, in my opinion, that Mayo people have a very defensive attitude to criticism of the forwards, and maybe more pertinently their forward play in general. There is absolutely a lack of top quality, either individually or as a collective, in the forwards and that is what has, in my opinion, stopped them from taking that final step. Cillian O'Connor is a fine player, but if Paul Geaney was born in Mayo rather than Kerry, Mayo would probably have won by now. Or James O'Donoghue, or maybe even Michael Quinlivan or young Comer from Galway.

It's certainly not bottle, or fitness, or even defensive tactics that are causing them to lose, I think it's just that small bit of extra quality which is missing.

What is usually missing, is proper analysis. Usually it is' a lack of bottle' that is thrown at us, as a lazy stereotype. In fairness you ruled that out. Think Joe Brolly and his 'lazy celebrity' crap.

Regarding the Dubs, Paul Flynn and BB have been two of the best forwards of their respective types, that I have seen. But I wouldn't take them now. Mannion (24) and Costello (22) look good prospects, but do we throw away Diarmuid O'Connor (21), Evan Regan (23)  and Conor Loftus (21) for them? I'd say neutrals wouldn't be sure about that, never mind Mayo fans.

Anyone would take Connolly, but not with his form against us. Kilkenny would obviously be very desirable, but would we swap AOS? McLoughlin is a big favourite with Mayo fans (I don't like seeing him as a sweeper) but I can't see Mayo fans willing to trade him either.

After 160 mins there was no more than a kick of a ball, a player's mistake or a referee's decision in it, depending on who you listen to. What wasn't the difference (read the thread above), imho, was that one set of forwards were world class, while the others set should be scrapped. Of course Mayo fans will be defensive when we read that sort of lazy analysis.

I'd take Mannion & Costello every day of the week.

[macdanger2]

MM do you really think many Mayo supporters would swap 26 year old Dean Rock for 24 year old Cillian? 

If we had 6 forwards who were kept scoreless from play for as long as the Dubs were we would be ridiculed from all quarters. But when the reverse occurs we are told to dump our lot and import the Dubs?

I think it's certainly true that Mayo get undue criticism from people about their forwards, however it is also true, in my opinion, that Mayo people have a very defensive attitude to criticism of the forwards, and maybe more pertinently their forward play in general. There is absolutely a lack of top quality, either individually or as a collective, in the forwards and that is what has, in my opinion, stopped them from taking that final step. Cillian O'Connor is a fine player, but if Paul Geaney was born in Mayo rather than Kerry, Mayo would probably have won by now. Or James O'Donoghue, or maybe even Michael Quinlivan or young Comer from Galway.

It's certainly not bottle, or fitness, or even defensive tactics that are causing them to lose, I think it's just that small bit of extra quality which is missing.

What is usually missing, is proper analysis. Usually it is' a lack of bottle' that is thrown at us, as a lazy stereotype. In fairness you ruled that out. Think Joe Brolly and his 'lazy celebrity' crap.

Regarding the Dubs, Paul Flynn and BB have been two of the best forwards of their respective types, that I have seen. But I wouldn't take them now. Mannion (24) and Costello (22) look good prospects, but do we throw away Diarmuid O'Connor (21), Evan Regan (23)  and Conor Loftus (21) for them? I'd say neutrals wouldn't be sure about that, never mind Mayo fans.

Anyone would take Connolly, but not with his form against us. Kilkenny would obviously be very desirable, but would we swap AOS? McLoughlin is a big favourite with Mayo fans (I don't like seeing him as a sweeper) but I can't see Mayo fans willing to trade him either.

After 160 mins there was no more than a kick of a ball, a player's mistake or a referee's decision in it, depending on who you listen to. What wasn't the difference (read the thread above), imho, was that one set of forwards were world class, while the others set should be scrapped. Of course Mayo fans will be defensive when we read that sort of lazy analysis.

I'd take Mannion & Costello every day of the week.

The way things are these days, ye'd probably have a look at Elvis Costello and Theresa Mannion I'd say

[Syferus]

Aidan O'Shea scored 1.04 this year in 9 matches which for one of our top forwards in the country is very poor in my opinion. Saying that though I noticed Sean Cavanagh also only scored 7 points this year in 5 matches.
Everyone is singing Brian Fenton's praises but he has only managed 3 points in 7 games whereas Kilkenny managed 5 points all year.

I thought AoS played well against Tyrone but besides that I didn't think he stood out in any of the other games.
I think he would have done better from MF in the final. It is no coincidence that Ryan McHugh and Peter Harte kick a lot of scores whilst being named at wing back. If Mayo could release Keegan more like they did for his goal they would get a lot more scores I believe.

AOS is a below average forward. He's a quaility midfielder, though. Never has had much touch for scoring so you've not been watching him much if you think that total is anything out of the ordinary for him.

[westbound]

I think the issue with Mayo's forwards is not so much with the starting forwards, but with the quality of the forwards that they can bring on.

Dillion, and Barry Moran were the only two forward subs used by Mayo last saturday. I don't think barry moran is good enough as a forward and Dillons best days are behind him. They didn't score after they came on.

By comparison, Dublin only used two forward subs as well - Brogan and Costello. And While Brogan didn't do a whole pile he still scored 0-1 and costello added 0-3.

0-4 is a great return from a couple of forward subs, but I don't think Mayo subs would ever contribute that.

IMO, that's why Mayo need a couple of additional forwards, not necessarily to replace current starting forwards, but to ensure that mayo have about 8 forwards of similar standard. At the moment there is too much of a drop off in standard when Mayo bring on forward subs.

[iorras]

The only 2 forward subs because 3 substitutions were forced on us, 1 Lee Keegan, 2 Donal Vaughan and 3 Rob Hennelly. None of those substitutions would have been in the plan. That gives you little room to manoeuvre, who knows what our forwards subs plan actually was.
We also had Tom Parson off the field for a good while getting stitches from a head butt which mean that threw our plans awry also

[westbound]

The only 2 forward subs because 3 substitutions were forced on us, 1 Lee Keegan, 2 Donal Vaughan and 3 Rob Hennelly. None of those substitutions would have been in the plan. That gives you little room to manoeuvre, who knows what our forwards subs plan actually was.
We also had Tom Parson off the field for a good while getting stitches from a head butt which mean that threw our plans awry also

I don't disagree with that.

My point was that the forward options off the bench that Mayo have aren't good enough IMO. That's why I believe Mayo need another forward or two.
I actually don't think they need 'a top class forward' but I do think they need two more good forwards to improve the bench.

[sambostar]

MM do you really think many Mayo supporters would swap 26 year old Dean Rock for 24 year old Cillian? 

If we had 6 forwards who were kept scoreless from play for as long as the Dubs were we would be ridiculed from all quarters. But when the reverse occurs we are told to dump our lot and import the Dubs?

I think it's certainly true that Mayo get undue criticism from people about their forwards, however it is also true, in my opinion, that Mayo people have a very defensive attitude to criticism of the forwards, and maybe more pertinently their forward play in general. There is absolutely a lack of top quality, either individually or as a collective, in the forwards and that is what has, in my opinion, stopped them from taking that final step. Cillian O'Connor is a fine player, but if Paul Geaney was born in Mayo rather than Kerry, Mayo would probably have won by now. Or James O'Donoghue, or maybe even Michael Quinlivan or young Comer from Galway.

It's certainly not bottle, or fitness, or even defensive tactics that are causing them to lose, I think it's just that small bit of extra quality which is missing.

What is usually missing, is proper analysis. Usually it is' a lack of bottle' that is thrown at us, as a lazy stereotype. In fairness you ruled that out. Think Joe Brolly and his 'lazy celebrity' crap.

Regarding the Dubs, Paul Flynn and BB have been two of the best forwards of their respective types, that I have seen. But I wouldn't take them now. Mannion (24) and Costello (22) look good prospects, but do we throw away Diarmuid O'Connor (21), Evan Regan (23)  and Conor Loftus (21) for them? I'd say neutrals wouldn't be sure about that, never mind Mayo fans.

Anyone would take Connolly, but not with his form against us. Kilkenny would obviously be very desirable, but would we swap AOS? McLoughlin is a big favourite with Mayo fans (I don't like seeing him as a sweeper) but I can't see Mayo fans willing to trade him either.

After 160 mins there was no more than a kick of a ball, a player's mistake or a referee's decision in it, depending on who you listen to. What wasn't the difference (read the thread above), imho, was that one set of forwards were world class, while the others set should be scrapped. Of course Mayo fans will be defensive when we read that sort of lazy analysis.

I'd take Mannion & Costello every day of the week.

Same here, this is a ridiculous argument. I remember a Mayo fan at the start of the summer raving about this guy Regan, he was sensational against Down in the league etc. etc. I laughed & said let's see what he does come August/September. If they were so good why didn't they play in the 2 finals? DOC was rubbish too - and if he was injured then he shouldn't have been playing & some of these other "star" forwards should have played instead

[Jinxy]

The only 2 forward subs because 3 substitutions were forced on us, 1 Lee Keegan, 2 Donal Vaughan and 3 Rob Hennelly. None of those substitutions would have been in the plan. That gives you little room to manoeuvre, who knows what our forwards subs plan actually was.
We also had Tom Parson off the field for a good while getting stitches from a head butt which mean that threw our plans awry also

WTF?

[macdanger2]

The only 2 forward subs because 3 substitutions were forced on us, 1 Lee Keegan, 2 Donal Vaughan and 3 Rob Hennelly. None of those substitutions would have been in the plan. That gives you little room to manoeuvre, who knows what our forwards subs plan actually was.
We also had Tom Parson off the field for a good while getting stitches from a head butt which mean that threw our plans awry also

I don't disagree with that.

My point was that the forward options off the bench that Mayo have aren't good enough IMO. That's why I believe Mayo need another forward or two.
I actually don't think they need 'a top class forward' but I do think they need two more good forwards to improve the bench.

I'd largely agree with that. If we hadn't used up our subs, you'd probably have seen Regan on too. Impossible to know how he would have fared though. On a general note, hopefully himself and Loftus will improve next year having had a full season with the squad now

[muppet]

MM do you really think many Mayo supporters would swap 26 year old Dean Rock for 24 year old Cillian? 

If we had 6 forwards who were kept scoreless from play for as long as the Dubs were we would be ridiculed from all quarters. But when the reverse occurs we are told to dump our lot and import the Dubs?

I think it's certainly true that Mayo get undue criticism from people about their forwards, however it is also true, in my opinion, that Mayo people have a very defensive attitude to criticism of the forwards, and maybe more pertinently their forward play in general. There is absolutely a lack of top quality, either individually or as a collective, in the forwards and that is what has, in my opinion, stopped them from taking that final step. Cillian O'Connor is a fine player, but if Paul Geaney was born in Mayo rather than Kerry, Mayo would probably have won by now. Or James O'Donoghue, or maybe even Michael Quinlivan or young Comer from Galway.

It's certainly not bottle, or fitness, or even defensive tactics that are causing them to lose, I think it's just that small bit of extra quality which is missing.

What is usually missing, is proper analysis. Usually it is' a lack of bottle' that is thrown at us, as a lazy stereotype. In fairness you ruled that out. Think Joe Brolly and his 'lazy celebrity' crap.

Regarding the Dubs, Paul Flynn and BB have been two of the best forwards of their respective types, that I have seen. But I wouldn't take them now. Mannion (24) and Costello (22) look good prospects, but do we throw away Diarmuid O'Connor (21), Evan Regan (23)  and Conor Loftus (21) for them? I'd say neutrals wouldn't be sure about that, never mind Mayo fans.

Anyone would take Connolly, but not with his form against us. Kilkenny would obviously be very desirable, but would we swap AOS? McLoughlin is a big favourite with Mayo fans (I don't like seeing him as a sweeper) but I can't see Mayo fans willing to trade him either.

After 160 mins there was no more than a kick of a ball, a player's mistake or a referee's decision in it, depending on who you listen to. What wasn't the difference (read the thread above), imho, was that one set of forwards were world class, while the others set should be scrapped. Of course Mayo fans will be defensive when we read that sort of lazy analysis.

I'd take Mannion & Costello every day of the week.

Same here, this is a ridiculous argument. I remember a Mayo fan at the start of the summer raving about this guy Regan, he was sensational against Down in the league etc. etc. I laughed & said let's see what he does come August/September. If they were so good why didn't they play in the 2 finals? DOC was rubbish too - and if he was injured then he shouldn't have been playing & some of these other "star" forwards should have played instead

Show me where anyone called them "star" forwards. Or do you just make stuff up?

I called them 'good prospects'. DOC played in both Finals, more time than Mannion. Regan and Costello played in one and Loftus made no appearance. But he is U-21 so we will probably give him a chance.