Ballyjamesduff

[muppet]

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

[StGallsGAA]

The people who jump onto a forum straight after a tragic event such as this to spout their opinion, knowing nothing other than what's reported would make you sick. Who gives a fcuk what your opinion of the situation is?    The same bollockses are probably contributing to the depression thread posting their opinion as gospel too. 

[seafoid]

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

[seafoid]

Una Butler lost her family in 2010

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/murder-suicide-cases-being-brushed-under-carpet-in-ireland-1.2772960
"Murder-suicide, people seem to think they're rare, but they're not - there have been 27 cases since 2000. I've researched it myself because there aren't any official statistics here in Ireland on murder-suicides," she said.
"Of those 27 cases, 20 involved children, 29 children have been murdered and ten adults. I was campaigning for changes to the Mental Health Act because my husband was suffering with depression at the time - I am campaigning to involve family members because patient confidentiality is being put ahead.
"I'm not saying that all these cases involved people suffering with their mental health."
Ms Butler said there is not enough investigation into murder-suicides in Ireland and the Garda investigation concludes at the inquest.
"These cases are being brushed under the carpet. Family should involved in treatment."
Speaking about her own experience, she said: "It's very had to live without my children. I just had to learn and to do the best I can every day.

[Esmarelda]

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

With regards to the first part in bold, why would you say this?

On the second part, I'd have thought that the word "known" should be in there.

I'm suppressing my rage at most of the posts but I will state that I agree with StGallsGAA.

[seafoid]

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

With regards to the first part in bold, why would you say this?

On the second part, I'd have thought that the word "known" should be in there.

I'm suppressing my rage at most of the posts but I will state that I agree with StGallsGAA.

Because when people are suicidal they tend to think about how other suicides were carried out.
For example driving a car into the traffic on the other side. And if there is a precedent they may replicate it.

[manfromdelmonte]

I just cannot comprehend the devastation that there must be in the wider families, communities, schools etc

[seafoid]

I just cannot comprehend the devastation that there must be in the wider families, communities, schools etc

Imagine the aunts, uncles and cousins

[omaghjoe]

Awful tragedy, brings back terrible memories of a similar incident in Omagh a few years back. RIP

The topic that has come up tho is an interesting one which we have to tackle and wether or not it applies to this case or not we will soon find out.

On the one hand Freedom of choice and responsibility of that choice is the basis of the justice system and rightly or wrongly the mental health defence completely undermines this. This paradigm has infiltrated our opinion and thought on the matter, to be sympathetic to people with psychological issues rather than attach blame to them.

Someone can de deemed devoid or responsibility based on their actions and behaviour without actually anything physically wrong with them. Its completely subjective and the opens a can of worms. Whats the difference between a sociopath and a schizophrenic for example? Why does one deserve to be treated differently in the justice system than the other? What about a fit of rage, drunk etc none of these cases you are thinking straight.


On the other side if you are drawing an unsympathetic line in the sand to those that are depressed that commit acts like this you would have to apply it across the board including those who take their own lives.

Mental Health has no simple answers.

[macdanger2]

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

There was a lady on Drivetime earlier who said that in the vast majority of these cases, the people who committed these crimes had mental illnesses and that ~80% had recently had a negative life changing event e.g. Losing a job.

She also said that the details of the murders and the motives for them shouldn't be "glamourised" too much in the media for fear of copycats; rather that the focus should be on the victims and the consequences on those left behind.

Terrible tragedy for the family

[Hereiam]

I tell u one thing, the headline on yesterdays irish news where they claimed the father done it is why i don't buy this paper any more, gutter journalism at its best.

[Tony Baloney]

I tell u one thing, the headline on yesterdays irish news where they claimed the father done it is why i don't buy this paper any more, gutter journalism at its best.

So who did it then? As I said earlier the Guards said someone in the house did this. Statistically speaking it's unlikely to be the children (considering the eldest was 13) or the wife. That leaves the husband/da.

[theskull1]

It was the Garda statement that kicked off the speculation and its very easy to conclude (maybe wrongly) that the father (especially if knives were used) was the only murderer. There must be a high level of certainty given the garda statement that there was no outside involvement I presume. Can 'the disgusted' help the rest of us understand what is wrong with the conclusions being drawn? Are there wrong assumptions being made? If so what are they?

Some gunk to any community all the same when you consider the positive contribution they were making in it ... hard to fathom

[Hound]

Gardai say the father hanged himself after murdering his wife and children with a number of different knives.

No known history of mental illness. A sealed envelope was found which is thought to contain a detailed letter written by the father.

[brokencrossbar1]

How many on here have suffered a mental breakdown or supported someone who has either as a lay person or a medical professional?  I'd say very few. I have and what I can say is that there are times when you are depressed that all rationale and reasoning goes out through the gate. No one knows what precipitated this terrible event. We can speculate, condemn, sympathise, whatever, but no one knows what went on in the minutes, hours, days or even years leading up to this apart from the people involved. It was murder full stop but that does not mean there were not mental health issues. We are not in a court here trying to win a case. You can call something wrong but still realise and accept that there were horrible reasons before an event that contributed significantly to it. Mental health problems are rife in our country and if you look at the majority of crimes committed they are carried out by people with either mental health problems or poor education or both, with the mental health being untreated for years because of domestic circumstances, societal attitudes or simply ignorance on the part of the person.