UVF Give up but keep the Guns

[Main Street]

hh - id agree that the ideals of the uvf may be very different from what they claim - they are simply drug dealing gangsters in my mind - but the problem is they claim to have an ideal, defending their communities against their enemies.

Obviously if this was their only concern they wouldnt be peddling drugs and extorting their own communities.

What has changed now?
Were they given an ultimatum to change just one thing, they decided to give up on the redundant defending idea but continue to peddle drugs?

[MW]

What you did was compared the worst of the nationalist side with the best of the unionist side.
Not very balanced!

Indeed, that was the whole point of my post.

"Ludicrous sloganeering which airbrushes unionists and their identity (not to mention the principle of consent, which is labelled "imperialism") out of the equation and paints the IRA as "the people""

It was very clear that we were comparing the "ideals" of the IRA with that of the UVF here.

Leaving aside the terror groups themselves, you have a very skewed interpretation of 'republicanism versus loyalism' if you start throwing in terms like 'imperialism' and 'liberation'.

The principle of consent is a convenient argument for the side which implants enough people to the land they occupy to obtain this!!!
Ask the Tibetans about the "principle of consent"

Ask the Americans, or the Canadians, or the Australians, or the Mexicans, or the Argentinians, or the South Africans, or various Arab nations, or the Russians, or the Irish, or the French, or... all nations and states to some extent based on population movements & settlements from centuries ago.

And I never labelled the IRA as "the people", this is cutting and pasting my words to your convenience.
I called them "the people struggling for liberation from imperialism"
Theres a big difference there.

It's no less biased or inaccurate. With that phrase you paint unionists who want their homeland, which they have lived in for centuries, to remain part of the nation-state to which they belong as "imperialists".

And the IRA, which was carrying out a terrorist campaign and murdering hundreds of people in cold blood because of, for example, their nationality or political opinion, as "struggling for liberation".

On the other hand, I'm happy to accept the legitimacy of all national identities and aspirations here, and to express my disgust at all the terrorist groups and their atrocities, as completely illegitimate and reprehensible.

[MW]

Now, about me being an "utter bigot"...

[lynchbhoy]

I heard this morning that one 'Irish' journalist has already likened Gusty Spence to Norn Iron's Nelson Mandela.

Jesus H Christ.

Lynchbhoy

It's been a while and you've probably forgotten, but we're still waiting for details of this apartheid regime in NI. Sorry to be raking over old posts but as you've decided to bring it up again

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?
that the ira and retaliation just came about because the nationalists were bored?



you are defo the king of all ostriches !


(btw this implies that you have asked me this before... )

[Evil Genius]

Good point NIFAN, and if we may all get back to the original point, I'm amazed that there isnt uproar at the fact that they are hanging on to the weapons should they need them again.

Well if it helps your peace of mind any, HH, I agree entirely that it is outrageous that murderous thugs like these insist on holding onto illegally obtained weapons following a cessation/truce/armistice (or whatever they term it).

In fact, I think it outrageous that they, or any other self-appointed paramilitary group, should ever have taken up arms in the first place, in order to impose their will, by a concerted campaign of terror and murder, both on their own and other communities.

Equally outrageous, imo, is when commentators attempt to make some sort of moral distinction between these various parasites, merely because some of them (i.e. the paramilitaries) purport to be acting in pursuits of an "ideal" which corresponds with their own (i.e. the commentators) particular political point of view.

To paraphrase a famous pacifist religious leader: "Murder is Murder is Murder".

[Evil Genius]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

Well, I'd never have taken you for a backsliding, liberal, hand-wringing apologist for Unionist excesses...

What's with the phrase "oppression/apartheid type regieme"? Or the "apartheid-like" term which you used in a previous post? 

Whatever happened to the Lynchboy who previously fearlessly denounced the outright "genocide" and "apartheid" inflicted by Unionists on Nationalists in the six county failed, occupied statelet?

Have you been seduced into airbrushing history by the silver-tongued Dr. Paisley?

Outrageous! See Father Alex Reid straightaway, and beg forgiveness for having lapsed into revisionism...

[lynchbhoy]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

Well, I'd never have taken you for a backsliding, liberal, hand-wringing apologist for Unionist excesses...

What's with the phrase "oppression/apartheid type regieme"? Or the "apartheid-like" term which you used in a previous post? 

Whatever happened to the Lynchboy who previously fearlessly denounced the outright "genocide" and "apartheid" inflicted by Unionists on Nationalists in the six county failed, occupied statelet?

Have you been seduced into airbrushing history by the silver-tongued Dr. Paisley?

Outrageous! See Father Alex Reid straightaway, and beg forgiveness for having lapsed into revisionism...

still joking about it then
another way of attempthing to wash it all away ?

sure you know yerself all about the attempts at genocide in their apartheid ni stylie state
...otherwise you wouldnt be mentioning it!

Glad we' have educated you somewhat!

[SammyG]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

[Evil Genius]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

Sammy,
Lynchboy has informed us several times in the past that both Apartheid and Genocide were carried out against the Nationalist people in NI, so that should be good enough.
Please don't resort to that old Unionist trick of asking for evidence etc, since it only makes us look foolish, as well as ostrich-like...

[lynchbhoy]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

I have used all sorts of 'apartheid' phrases
apartheid - esque -type  -like

anyway
I find this hard to imagine that you are denying the existance of all this

tip of the iceberg but to keep you happy here is a small selection straight off...
oppression of nationalists - voting rights, voting constituences, professional employment only for non nationalists apart from on token occasions,
police/army/unionist & loyalist killing squads collusion, these same people/squads targetting innocent nationalists (mostly targetted as they played GAA or were a well known figure in the local communities) - no police protection obv arising from this and no reprimand from the known perportrators.

funnily enough there is still some elements of all of this today..I have recently been given info that there are still pockets of this kind of behaviour in Derry city from the 'establishment' towards the local nationalist community!

[SammyG]

anyway
I find this hard to imagine that you are denying the existance of all this

For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying anything. I'm not aware of apartheid in NI and have never heard anybody else mention it. You keep mentioning it but won't tell me how it happened, when it happened, what form it took etc. Instead you go of on a rant about some unrelated topic. If you want to discuss housing or jobs or paramilitarism or collusion or whatever then fine but can we do that after we've finished the apartheid discussion.

[lynchbhoy]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

Sammy,
Lynchboy has informed us several times in the past that both Apartheid and Genocide were carried out against the Nationalist people in NI, so that should be good enough.
Please don't resort to that old Unionist trick of asking for evidence etc, since it only makes us look foolish, as well as ostrich-like...

EVIDENCE

read all the books , reports etc
did we all imagine bloody sunday and the establishment 'welcoming the civil rights people ?
FFS
yer not ostriches
yer badgers tunnelling like mad away from daylight and reality/truth!

[SammyG]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

Sammy,
Lynchboy has informed us several times in the past that both Apartheid and Genocide were carried out against the Nationalist people in NI, so that should be good enough.
Please don't resort to that old Unionist trick of asking for evidence etc, since it only makes us look foolish, as well as ostrich-like...

EVIDENCE

read all the books , reports etc
did we all imagine bloody sunday and the establishment 'welcoming the civil rights people ?
FFS
yer not ostriches
yer badgers tunnelling like mad away from daylight and reality/truth!

WTF has Bloody Sunday got to do with apartheid?

[lynchbhoy]

anyway
I find this hard to imagine that you are denying the existance of all this

For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying anything. I'm not aware of apartheid in NI and have never heard anybody else mention it. You keep mentioning it but won't tell me how it happened, when it happened, what form it took etc. Instead you go of on a rant about some unrelated topic. If you want to discuss housing or jobs or paramilitarism or collusion or whatever then fine but can we do that after we've finished the apartheid discussion.

jobs
health
state sponsored oppression (leading to the state sponsored collusion death squads mentioned previously that you dont want to talk about - wonder why)
voting constituencies

maybe you should start to read some of the many books and indeed commissioned reports that detail this kind of thing

or do you deny that any such thing has happened?

am I completely wrong
was NI always a lovely safe peaceful place to live in?  

[lynchbhoy]

is this the head in the sand unionist/loyalist tactic of saying that 'oppression/apartheid type regieme never happened towards nationalists'?

How can I have my head in the sand, when I don't know what you're on about? I have never seen or heard of an apartheid regime being practiced in NI (or even apartheid-type regime to use today's new phrase). I'm not denying that it happened or burying my head, I've genuinely never heard of it. I've asked you loads of times, going back about a year or 18 months, to tell me about it and you still haven't.

Sammy,
Lynchboy has informed us several times in the past that both Apartheid and Genocide were carried out against the Nationalist people in NI, so that should be good enough.
Please don't resort to that old Unionist trick of asking for evidence etc, since it only makes us look foolish, as well as ostrich-like...

EVIDENCE

read all the books , reports etc
did we all imagine bloody sunday and the establishment 'welcoming the civil rights people ?
FFS
yer not ostriches
yer badgers tunnelling like mad away from daylight and reality/truth!

WTF has Bloody Sunday got to do with apartheid?

you are joking right?