Author Topic: Championship structures - the never ending saga?  (Read 14811 times)

Rossfan

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Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« on: August 03, 2016, 11:14:22 AM »
Seeing as the Kerry thread has turned into a Championship structure thread and as most Counties have exited the Championships I thought it's time to give this old chestnut another whirl.

Any new,innovative, exciting, revolutionary practical proposals folks?
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Rufus T Firefly

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 11:26:56 AM »
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.

Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).

Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships. 

The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.


Walter Cronc

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 11:35:25 AM »
We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship. Then again I am a Derry man and our record is pants :D

screenexile

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 11:37:46 AM »
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.

Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).

Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships. 

The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.

It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.

Also if you win the 2nd tier competition but still remain in Division 3 that would create a bit of an anomaly! The basic premise is OK I think as it places a higher emphasis on the league. There will be a bit of a problem with dead rubber games in game 3 when teams have already qualified etc. but it gives weaker counties a chance to play more games and try and get themselves to a better level.

Donnellys Hollow

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 11:41:12 AM »
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships. Until that happens, the current system with all its obvious flaws, is probably the best way.

There's still a reluctance among many GAA people to dispense with the provincial system although that does appear to be slowly changing. There also appears to be no support for a B or second tier championship amongst the smaller counties so that is also out.

What people seem to want is a championship that includes the following:

-All the counties competing for the Sam Maguire (no second tier Tommy Murphy Cups)
-Retention of provincial championships (tradition maintained and all that)
-Every county having a similar path to the latter stages (impossible within unequal provincial structures you would think)
-Knockout championship element maintained (we don't seem to like round robin formats)
-No dead rubber matches (again, impossible within most of the proposed systems)
-Enough leeway in the structures for counties to fit in their club leagues & championships (a significant aspect of the greatest challenge facing the association at present)

Until some sort of a consensus emerges on what we want from a championship structure, it's going to be impossible to come up with a workable solution. I think we will be stuck with the provincial system for a long time yet.
 
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Rufus T Firefly

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 11:52:55 AM »
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.

Agreed - that is fair comment.

We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship.

To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships.   

I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them  as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils. 


Walter Cronc

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2016, 11:54:55 AM »
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.

Agreed - that is fair comment.

We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship.

To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships.   

I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them  as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils

Is this to ring fence and secure their jobs rather than the betterment of the game?? I suppose if in their position you'd do the same.

seafoid

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2016, 11:58:31 AM »
The GPA have a proposal with 4 groups of 8 but I don't know the detail

The new system would have to give every team 3 or 4 matches. Keep Croke Park for the end stages.

The provincial championships could be run off after the league 9r instead of it. There is too much psychology in them. And Leinster is a mess.
Counties are not going to accept 2 tiers.
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armaghniac

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2016, 12:03:48 PM »
I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them  as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils.


You have stadia in Cork and Belfast being built which rely, especially the latter, on the concept of a provincial championship.


Also groups of 8 are fine, but if they are not geographically based you'd have some games with very modest attendances, Derry v Wexford would not be overcrowded whoever got home advantage, although they both decent teams and Down v Cork would not do much for the Mourne tourist industry.
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blewuporstuffed

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2016, 12:07:00 PM »
the league is restructured to 3 divisions of 12
the pre-season competitions (mckenna cup etc) are scrapped and the league starts earlier
the top 12 places in the league enter the Sam Maguire competition (a 16 team knockout competition) and are seeded accordingly
the provincial championships are then played and the winners are seeded 13/14/15/16 on a rotating basis, unless of course some of the winners have a higher seeding due to league position, in that case the next placed league team would enter the same maguire competition at #16.
the championship draw is then:

(higher seeded teams have home advantage in the first round)

side a
#1 v#16
#2 v#15
#3 v#14
#4 v#13
side b
#5 v #12
#6 v #11
#7 v #10
#8 v #9

then an open draw of one team from side a v one team from side b

 and an open draw then onwards to the final

The bottom placed 16 teams in the league would enter a secondary competition and again would be a knockout seeded draw based on league placings
on the second year of this format, only the top 11 teams in the league qualify automatically for the Sam maguire cup along with the 4 provincial winners and the previous years winner from the 'B' competition

I know alot of people are dead against a 'B' competition, but this format still allows ALL counties the chance to qualify for the sam maguire on any given year by winning their province, or if they have won teh previous years secondary competition.

It would also place more emphasis on league placings, making the league more competitive.
This format also keeps the provincial structure, but reduces its importance in terms of winning an AI.
(ie finishing in the top 4 in the league is of more benefit that winning the provincial title in terms of your overall seeding)

I would scrap the league finals/semi finals etc and just award a div 1/2/3 trophy to whoever finishes top

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twohands!!!

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2016, 12:20:02 PM »
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships. Until that happens, the current system with all its obvious flaws, is probably the best way.

There's still a reluctance among many GAA people to dispense with the provincial system although that does appear to be slowly changing. There also appears to be no support for a B or second tier championship amongst the smaller counties so that is also out.

What people seem to want is a championship that includes the following:

-All the counties competing for the Sam Maguire (no second tier Tommy Murphy Cups)
-Retention of provincial championships (tradition maintained and all that)
-Every county having a similar path to the latter stages (impossible within unequal provincial structures you would think)
-Knockout championship element maintained (we don't seem to like round robin formats)
-No dead rubber matches (again, impossible within most of the proposed systems)
-Enough leeway in the structures for counties to fit in their club leagues & championships (a significant aspect of the greatest challenge facing the association at present)

Until some sort of a consensus emerges on what we want from a championship structure, it's going to be impossible to come up with a workable solution. I think we will be stuck with the provincial system for a long time yet.

The record of teams who played in Division 4 is getting worse and worse year-by-year - and this year they have hit a new low - with no team from Division 4 beating any team who wasn't also from Division 4.

If you give these teams more games (unless it's among themselves) all you are going to get are an increased number of uncompetitive games that will be of no benefit to anyone.

It's probably going to take a few more years for the painful truth to be accepted but looking at the results of the Division 4 teams for this year and how the form of Division 4 teams in the championship has steadily been declining over the last few years (which is something I really don't see changing any time soon), I've come to the conclusion that these teams have no place in the main championship. These counties may want to take part in the main show but their performances haven't done anything to support this.

I think the provincial councils are a massive barrier to any change as regards the provincial championships - I think the provincial councils need to be removed before there is any chance the provincial championships can get changed.


blewuporstuffed

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2016, 12:40:57 PM »
the league is restructured to 3 divisions of 12
the pre-season competitions (mckenna cup etc) are scrapped and the league starts earlier
the top 12 places in the league enter the Sam Maguire competition (a 16 team knockout competition) and are seeded accordingly
the provincial championships are then played and the winners are seeded 13/14/15/16 on a rotating basis, unless of course some of the winners have a higher seeding due to league position, in that case the next placed league team would enter the same maguire competition at #16.
the championship draw is then:

(higher seeded teams have home advantage in the first round)

side a
#1 v#16
#2 v#15
#3 v#14
#4 v#13
side b
#5 v #12
#6 v #11
#7 v #10
#8 v #9

then an open draw of one team from side a v one team from side b

 and an open draw then onwards to the final

The bottom placed 16 teams in the league would enter a secondary competition and again would be a knockout seeded draw based on league placings
on the second year of this format, only the top 11 teams in the league qualify automatically for the Sam maguire cup along with the 4 provincial winners and the previous years winner from the 'B' competition

I know alot of people are dead against a 'B' competition, but this format still allows ALL counties the chance to qualify for the sam maguire on any given year by winning their province, or if they have won teh previous years secondary competition.

It would also place more emphasis on league placings, making the league more competitive.
This format also keeps the provincial structure, but reduces its importance in terms of winning an AI.
(ie finishing in the top 4 in the league is of more benefit that winning the provincial title in terms of your overall seeding)

I would scrap the league finals/semi finals etc and just award a div 1/2/3 trophy to whoever finishes top
In the above format based on this years league placings and championship format the first round in the knockout last 16 Sam maguire would be

Side A
Dublin v laois
Kerry v Armagh
Roscommon v Derry
Donegal v Meath

Side B
Mayo v Fermanagh
Monaghan v Galway
Cork v Cavan
Down V Tyrone

and the (purely hypothetical) predictiong winners of that you would have a draw of

SIDE A
Dublin
Kerry
Roscommon
Donegal

V

SIDE B
Mayo
Monaghan
Cork
Tyrone

in the last 8
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BennyHarp

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2016, 12:42:39 PM »
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.

Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).

Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships. 

The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.

It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.

Also if you win the 2nd tier competition but still remain in Division 3 that would create a bit of an anomaly! The basic premise is OK I think as it places a higher emphasis on the league. There will be a bit of a problem with dead rubber games in game 3 when teams have already qualified etc. but it gives weaker counties a chance to play more games and try and get themselves to a better level.

Teams should look at winning the second tier competition as being promotion to the top tier the following year and not like they are being excluded from the championship altogether. I don't see why they should be parachuted in that particular year as they can get there on merit over a period of time. Would the possibility of promotion not add the required value to the second tier competition? Could you even go as far as having 3 tiers at which point there are very few meaningless games.

12 in top tier - 2 groups of 6, top 4 into quarter finals, bottom 2 in relegation play offs.
10 in second tier - 2 groups of 5, top teams into semi finals, play offs of teams in 2nd and 3rd for other semi final spots. Bottom two in relegation play offs.
10 in tier three - as above.

Run the provincials as a knock out in March and April.
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Rossfan

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2016, 02:04:27 PM »
My preferred logical option is for a Senior (12), Intermediate(12) and Junior (8) all Irelands with separate Provincials with all participating.
Depending on whether you go with Round robins or Knock outs - either have a small League or as is.
However this proposal would never see the light of day so I'll throw out another proposal.

Taking into account that :-
* the "bald men" want to take part in the "comb" championship
* the Provincials are too ingrained in us and all that local rivalry and tradition etc
* The NFL provides lots of good games between reasonably evenly matched teams but is lumped into the worst months of the year
I suggest  -
Play the NFL in 4 Divisions as at present but going much later into the year interspersed with breaks for the Provincial Championships. No knock out stage in the NFL, top team wins the Division and keep the 2 up/2 down.
Play all Provincial preliminary rounds the same weekend, all Qtr finals the same etc. Extra time in all games.
This would take 11 weekends.
Based on this year my proposed timetable would be 
6/7 Feb NFL Rd 1
13/14 Feb NFL Rd 2
27/28 Feb NFL Rd3
12/13 Mar NFL Rd 4
26/27 Mar Provincial preliminaries
9/10 April NFL Rd 5
23/24 Apr Prov Qtr Finals (incl London and NY games)
7/8 May NFL Rd 6
21/22 May Prov Semis
4/5 June NFL Rd 7.
11/12 June Prov Finals.

25/26 June All Ireland Championship Rd 1 ( 8 D4 teams of next year's NFL v 8 D 3 teams of next year's NFL)
2/3 July - AI Championship Round 2 (8 winners Rd 1 v 8 teams of next year's D2)
16/17 July AI Championship Round 3 ( 8 winners Round 2 v 8 teams  in next year's D1)
Provincial Champions seeded an d if a D2 or 3 side won a Provincial the go to Round 3 with next lowest NFL team taking their place in Round 1 or 2.
6/7 Aug All Irl Qtr Finals
27/28 Aug - both AI Semis the same weekend
18 Sept AI Football final.

Challenge is to fit club games and them oul' hurley games in there as well.
U17 and U 20 I C championships to be played same weekends as the Senior football IC games.
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manfromdelmonte

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Re: Championship structures - the never ending saga?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 02:05:24 PM »
Without local rivalries in GAA games supporters won't turn up to round robin games