If it's not about the money then why are Dublin so far ahead?

[AZOffaly]

The Dubs had all games in Croker between 1996 and 2010 and won nothing
In 5 years or a  decade they will be back winning nothing

SeafoId you don't  have to comment on every thread. They only starting playing every league game 4 years ago.

Not true Dinny - Floodlights were switched on in Croker in 2007 - that was the start of playing Saturday night games in Croker - previous to that it depended on the expected crowd for the game - so in years like 96, when we were reigning AI champs we would have had games in the league at headquarters.

Every game ET in the last 4 years I was quite explicit on that. I'll ask you the same question on a sporting level is it fair Dublin play every game excluding away league games in Croke Park?  Not interested in extenuating circumstances or games promotion answers just an answers at a sporting level?

I don't think it is ideal on any level that CP is the only venue suitable for our home league games, but you cannot divorce the question from the context. I do not think that anyone in DCB or the senior team is concerned that angling for more access is going to give them an advantage on the pitch - it is all about games promotion.

As I said to another poster on here - if you are looking for absolute fairness, then don't look at sport and certainly don't look at the GAA. Dublin can't change the fact that is the capital city, nor that GAA headquarters are situated there. We can look at the division of development funds to other counties (though I would warn you all, the sporting public in Dublin is fickle and the participation rates can fall as well as increase - the multiplicity of sporting and leisure choices here does make us a special case) but you cannot merely flick away reality and demand an absolute level playing field.

For instance, Leinster counties such as Kildare do have a far more intimate knowledge of CP then, say Ulster counties - on your way to a Leinster final you could play in CP 3 times. However, when Donegal beat you in that epic in 2011 (was it?) there wasn't too much complaint before hand about Kildare's knowledge of Croker.

For instance, there was complaints on here yesterday about the relative amounts spent as a total on intercounty teams, county by county. When I pointed out that Dublin is a dual county, competitive in both codes, I was still told that Mayo spent as much on their hurling teams as we would on ours, therefore there was still a disparity. Of course, the logical step of following through on that, and criticising Galway, as third on the list, as a financial behemoth in Connacht was not taken.

Because a lot of this criticism is either unfounded or fails to take in any context. the reality is, is that Gaelic games were in danger of being eclipsed in the capital due to competition from other sports - this was reflected in our underachievement on the national stage. DCB put a plan together, got the funding and went at it baldheaded, but the plan was always to use success on the pitch to bolster interest in participation at club level and have the structures there to handle it. Leading to more good players coming through and success more akin to a Kerry set up than what it was - once a decade or so, bar the 70s.

But to think that there is a continuing conspiracy in headquarters to prop up the Dublin set up, is just crazy. The reason coaches and GDOs have not been redistributed amongst other counties is one for finance ie  Dublin clubs contribute half the costs and other counties must agree to this and HR - you can't just uproot people from their jobs and lives and put them into a different part of the country. That's a knotty problem and one for CP to sort out - but this is not the X files and sometimes you get beat when you don't deserve it. Sport teaches about fairness and good conduct and all that - but its most important lesson is how to deal with something that is inherently unfair - like a referee making an absolute howling mistake, or Munster having to face the All Blacks in 78, with all the advantages they had, or Lincoln Red Imps having to face former European champions? That is sport. to paraphrase someone "life is unfair - you do your work in the face of that"

Easytiger, a lot of that makes sense, but that last line is very annoying to read. The Dubs have inherent advantages, and that is what I am referring to in regard to working to bridge the gap. But someone who is receiving hugely disproportionate money from the GAA to INCREASE their competitive advantage from a developmental perspective has to have a fairly brass neck to tell the rest of us to suck it up.

[blast05]

For instance, there was complaints on here yesterday about the relative amounts spent as a total on intercounty teams, county by county. When I pointed out that Dublin is a dual county, competitive in both codes, I was still told that Mayo spent as much on their hurling teams as we would on ours, therefore there was still a disparity. Of course, the logical step of following through on that, and criticising Galway, as third on the list, as a financial behemoth in Connacht was not taken.

I can only presume you are referring to our discussion yesterday and so with all due respect ET, read my posts on this again.
I never said that Mayo hurlers spent as much as Dublin hurlers.
Here is what i said:

In 2015, Dublin spent 1.55 million, Mayo spent 600K.
From looking at the 2013 & 14 Mayo financial reports, approx 60% of the Mayo total expense is on travelling - the bulk of which of course is player mileage.
Given the hurlers get the same mileage rates then i think its fair to assume that at an absolute minimum, the cost of all Mayo hurling teams would be at least 150K - more than likely more.
In Dublins case, i don't think it would be unreasonable to say the hurler spend say 650K and the footballers 900K (if the Dublin hurlers spend more than that they are spending more than Kilkenny or Waterford did in 2015).

Its clear i am saying Mayo hurlers spend 150K and by extension 450K on the footballers (& given that ~60% of overall Mayo spend is on travel (from trends from 2013-15), given that mileage rates are the same for both codes and with both codes have to put a lot of mile in training to and from training then i believe 150K on the hurlers is reasonable and conservative.
And its also clear i guesstimated Dublin hurlers spend 650K

So, if 150K equals 650K .... well, there is a lot i could say but won't. Just simply, please be honest in any discussions on this subject.

As for Galway .... again, as travel expenses are ~60% in Mayo then i think its reasonable to assume a similar big percentage in Galway (i don't have time to check their CB accounts) ..... and thus given their hurlers go to the All-Ireland final then it looks on a pro-rata level equivalent to Mayos spend.

The question - again - is what the blazes Dublin footballers "900K" spend is on given their travelling expenses can only be a fraction of the percentage spend of Mayo, Galway, etc.


Re some questions of when the dressing room decision to go alphabetical was made ..... in the stadium tour i done on Monday, the guide as best I can recall said "a few years ago".
I regret bringing up the dressing room discussion cos its a miniscule issue and is being used as a red herring to deflect from the bigger picture on finances and CP being the home venue.

[Dinny Breen]

Also want to make clear, I think the home advantage thing is way over done - I think the motivating factor of beating Dublin there probably balances out any perceived advantage playing there gives Dublin. For every Wooly Parkinson complaining (and a lot of what he said was not true BTW) there is another intercounty player saying that it pushed their performance upwards.

That's an absolute cop out of answer. I give up.

[Croí na hÉireann]

The Dubs had all games in Croker between 1996 and 2010 and won nothing
In 5 years or a  decade they will be back winning nothing

SeafoId you don't  have to comment on every thread. They only starting playing every league game 4 years ago.

Not true Dinny - Floodlights were switched on in Croker in 2007 - that was the start of playing Saturday night games in Croker - previous to that it depended on the expected crowd for the game - so in years like 96, when we were reigning AI champs we would have had games in the league at headquarters.

Easytiger, would you know if the change from a toss of a coin to the use of the alphabet for allocating dressing rooms coincided with the start of the Spring Series?

I didn't even know about the alphabetical solution until blast told me - it sounded like it made sense because there is absolutely no difference between the dressing rooms, none. So I don't know if they ever flipped a coin - the point I was making in a post earlier was, that if it was felt there was a competitive advantage to one dressing room over another, they would have to flip a coin. The fact that, as Blast said, they do it by the alphabet reveals that they feel there is no advantage to be gained, one over the other.

Everyone realises there is no difference between the layout/size, etc. between the dressing rooms. That is not the issue. The issue is not with Dublin either even though I'm sure ye are looking on every mention about it as trying to begrudge Dublin their success. To the best of my knowledge the dressing rooms were always allocated on a random basis until a few years ago. Now I've known for the last few years that Dublin always got dressing room 1 on match day and looking back this seems to have been occurring since the start of the Spring Series. Like yourself, Blast's post is the first time I've heard about the alphabet being used to allocate match dressing rooms. With no further information out there and reading between the lines, it seems to me that as part of the deal to move Dublin into Croke Park for league games Dublin wanted to use the same dressing room the whole time. And it looks like the GAA came up with a GAA solution to a GAA problem with this whole alphabet allocation that will ensure Dublin are in dressing room 1 unless they are playing Armagh or Antrim. Now I've no problem with Dublin asking for this but I've a huge problem with the GAA for implementing this as it gives Dublin all the advantages, benefits and familiarity of being able to treat Croke Park as their home ground.

I can accept getting more people in to see our games can only be beneficial to the health of the association, hell I could even live with Dublin being the only team in the country who are guaranteed which end of the pitch they warm up at but the dressing room allocation (if it occurred as outlined above) is ripping the piss completely. If true it's time for all the counties to come together and ensure that the GAA enforces all aspects of match day routine in Croke Park on a fair and completely random basis.

[The Hill is Blue]

The Dubs had all games in Croker between 1996 and 2010 and won nothing
In 5 years or a  decade they will be back winning nothing

SeafoId you don't  have to comment on every thread. They only starting playing every league game 4 years ago.

.

Where are you proposing Dublin play their home league games?

Parnell Park.

How about the Dubs sharing Newbridge with Kildare as their home ground. If that were to happen I'm certain that Dublin's success rate against Kildare would be on par with their historic success rate - 100% or thereabouts.

[easytiger95]

The Dubs had all games in Croker between 1996 and 2010 and won nothing
In 5 years or a  decade they will be back winning nothing

SeafoId you don't  have to comment on every thread. They only starting playing every league game 4 years ago.

Not true Dinny - Floodlights were switched on in Croker in 2007 - that was the start of playing Saturday night games in Croker - previous to that it depended on the expected crowd for the game - so in years like 96, when we were reigning AI champs we would have had games in the league at headquarters.

Easytiger, would you know if the change from a toss of a coin to the use of the alphabet for allocating dressing rooms coincided with the start of the Spring Series?

I didn't even know about the alphabetical solution until blast told me - it sounded like it made sense because there is absolutely no difference between the dressing rooms, none. So I don't know if they ever flipped a coin - the point I was making in a post earlier was, that if it was felt there was a competitive advantage to one dressing room over another, they would have to flip a coin. The fact that, as Blast said, they do it by the alphabet reveals that they feel there is no advantage to be gained, one over the other.

Everyone realises there is no difference between the layout/size, etc. between the dressing rooms. That is not the issue. The issue is not with Dublin either even though I'm sure ye are looking on every mention about it as trying to begrudge Dublin their success. To the best of my knowledge the dressing rooms were always allocated on a random basis until a few years ago. Now I've known for the last few years that Dublin always got dressing room 1 on match day and looking back this seems to have been occurring since the start of the Spring Series. Like yourself, Blast's post is the first time I've heard about the alphabet being used to allocate match dressing rooms. With no further information out there and reading between the lines, it seems to me that as part of the deal to move Dublin into Croke Park for league games Dublin wanted to use the same dressing room the whole time. And it looks like the GAA came up with a GAA solution to a GAA problem with this whole alphabet allocation that will ensure Dublin are in dressing room 1 unless they are playing Armagh or Antrim. Now I've no problem with Dublin asking for this but I've a huge problem with the GAA for implementing this as it gives Dublin all the advantages, benefits and familiarity of being able to treat Croke Park as their home ground.

I can accept getting more people in to see our games can only be beneficial to the health of the association, hell I could even live with Dublin being the only team in the country who are guaranteed which end of the pitch they warm up at but the dressing room allocation (if it occurred as outlined above) is ripping the piss completely. If true it's time for all the counties to come together and ensure that the GAA enforces all aspects of match day routine in Croke Park on a fair and completely random basis.

Deep breaths - let's do this one by one

You have no idea, as illustrated by the words in bold above, whether any of your theory is true, whilst you also accept that there is absolutely no difference between the dressing rooms - hence no competitive advantage.

It would seem to me that this is completely pointless getting angry about. This is all confirmation bias - you think you're getting screwed by Dublin and you'll take any example to prove your bias. Definitely the wrong example.

Alphabetising seems to be as fair as any other solution - I would doubt there would be any objection if the DCB were asked to accept a coin toss - because there is no advantage either way.

[easytiger95]

Also want to make clear, I think the home advantage thing is way over done - I think the motivating factor of beating Dublin there probably balances out any perceived advantage playing there gives Dublin. For every Wooly Parkinson complaining (and a lot of what he said was not true BTW) there is another intercounty player saying that it pushed their performance upwards.

That's an absolute cop out of answer. I give up.

No it is not a cop out. It is what I believe and, more importantly, not what you want to hear. How you deal with that is up to you.

[AZOffaly]

We have 2 dressing rooms in Newport. They are both the same, except they are 'mirrors'. Our teams always use number 2, the away team uses number 1. We do that because our guys just feel comfortable in 'their' spot in the dressing room. It's a comfort and routine thing. It hardly makes them puck a ball better, but it does just reinforce the routine.

Having said all that, Dublin could probably tog out in the Croke Park hotel and it wouldn't make a difference.

[ballinaman]

We have 2 dressing rooms in Newport. They are both the same, except they are 'mirrors'. Our teams always use number 2, the away team uses number 1. We do that because our guys just feel comfortable in 'their' spot in the dressing room. It's a comfort and routine thing. It hardly makes them puck a ball better, but it does just reinforce the routine.

Having said all that, Dublin could probably tog out in the Croke Park hotel and it wouldn't make a difference.

Only 1 way to find out...when is next congress?

[Donnellys Hollow]

The Dubs don't half get ratty in these discussions despite their insistence that all of us country folk moaning makes their success all the sweeter.

[easytiger95]

We have 2 dressing rooms in Newport. They are both the same, except they are 'mirrors'. Our teams always use number 2, the away team uses number 1. We do that because our guys just feel comfortable in 'their' spot in the dressing room. It's a comfort and routine thing. It hardly makes them puck a ball better, but it does just reinforce the routine.

Having said all that, Dublin could probably tog out in the Croke Park hotel and it wouldn't make a difference.

I think your objection (although I don't agree with it) more plausible than a shadowy cabal in CP and the DCB doing deals to change a system to go with the alphabet, just to get a dressing room which is identical to the other down the corridor.

And true, with this present set of players, we have an inherent advantage, in that we have some of the best in the country.

As for my closing remarks above AZ and your response, the monies given to Dublin were not given for the purpose of providing a competitive advantage on the field in senior intercounty - they were to develop the games, hurling and football, at youth and club level, where there was a huge amount of competition from other sports. You're straying dangerously close to the shadowy rooms scenario.

I'm all for looking at funding - but my basic point stays the same - sport ain't fair. Chelsea find it easier to get players because the shopping in London is better for WAGS. You don't try and ban Harrods on the back of it.

Kerry won All Irelands in the 70s and 80s after only 3 serious games - the provincial system (which is a set up so unfair there is no comparison to it in world sport) was not banned after it.

[AZOffaly]

We have 2 dressing rooms in Newport. They are both the same, except they are 'mirrors'. Our teams always use number 2, the away team uses number 1. We do that because our guys just feel comfortable in 'their' spot in the dressing room. It's a comfort and routine thing. It hardly makes them puck a ball better, but it does just reinforce the routine.

Having said all that, Dublin could probably tog out in the Croke Park hotel and it wouldn't make a difference.

I think your objection (although I don't agree with it) more plausible than a shadowy cabal in CP and the DCB doing deals to change a system to go with the alphabet, just to get a dressing room which is identical to the other down the corridor.

And true, with this present set of players, we have an inherent advantage, in that we have some of the best in the country.

As for my closing remarks above AZ and your response, the monies given to Dublin were not given for the purpose of providing a competitive advantage on the field in senior intercounty - they were to develop the games, hurling and football, at youth and club level, where there was a huge amount of competition from other sports. You're straying dangerously close to the shadowy rooms scenario.

I'm all for looking at funding - but my basic point stays the same - sport ain't fair. Chelsea find it easier to get players because the shopping in London is better for WAGS. You don't try and ban Harrods on the back of it.

Kerry won All Irelands in the 70s and 80s after only 3 serious games - the provincial system (which is a set up so unfair there is no comparison to it in world sport) was not banned after it.

Easytiger, can you *genuinely* not see that investing huge monies in coaching and games development every year, far more than other counties get, inevitably leads to better players and therefore a competitive advantage?

If you cannot see that, then I'm wasting my time talking to you. I know what the motivations were at the time, and I don't necessarily even think the funding should be pulled. I think other counties should be funded to allow the same sort of quality coaching and structures. That would at least give them the opportunity to even the playing field in terms of developing players and bridging the competitive gap to Dublin.

By the way, as regards the dressing room, I couldn't give a shite where they tog out. As I said, those sort of things are piss ant issues. I was just trying to give an opinion on why others might be a bit more exercised about it. It feeds into the familiar routine and the comfort of being in familiar surrounds.

[larryin89]

Also want to make clear, I think the home advantage thing is way over done - I think the motivating factor of beating Dublin there probably balances out any perceived advantage playing there gives Dublin. For every Wooly Parkinson complaining (and a lot of what he said was not true BTW) there is another intercounty player saying that it pushed their performance upwards.

The motivating factor of beating dublin there prob balances out what exactly?

What do you reckon teams going to old trafford are not motivated to beat man united. Still they do better at home like every other club.

This is all just a nonsense. You called me out on my farm animal mannerism earlier, fair enough but im telling you the truth buddy im a very passionate gaa supporter of my county and i find horrid annoying to be told it doesnt make any difference .

If we played 13 final in castlebar , sam maguire would of stayed below.sin e.

[Croí na hÉireann]

The Dubs had all games in Croker between 1996 and 2010 and won nothing
In 5 years or a  decade they will be back winning nothing

SeafoId you don't  have to comment on every thread. They only starting playing every league game 4 years ago.

Not true Dinny - Floodlights were switched on in Croker in 2007 - that was the start of playing Saturday night games in Croker - previous to that it depended on the expected crowd for the game - so in years like 96, when we were reigning AI champs we would have had games in the league at headquarters.

Easytiger, would you know if the change from a toss of a coin to the use of the alphabet for allocating dressing rooms coincided with the start of the Spring Series?

I didn't even know about the alphabetical solution until blast told me - it sounded like it made sense because there is absolutely no difference between the dressing rooms, none. So I don't know if they ever flipped a coin - the point I was making in a post earlier was, that if it was felt there was a competitive advantage to one dressing room over another, they would have to flip a coin. The fact that, as Blast said, they do it by the alphabet reveals that they feel there is no advantage to be gained, one over the other.

Everyone realises there is no difference between the layout/size, etc. between the dressing rooms. That is not the issue. The issue is not with Dublin either even though I'm sure ye are looking on every mention about it as trying to begrudge Dublin their success. To the best of my knowledge the dressing rooms were always allocated on a random basis until a few years ago. Now I've known for the last few years that Dublin always got dressing room 1 on match day and looking back this seems to have been occurring since the start of the Spring Series. Like yourself, Blast's post is the first time I've heard about the alphabet being used to allocate match dressing rooms. With no further information out there and reading between the lines, it seems to me that as part of the deal to move Dublin into Croke Park for league games Dublin wanted to use the same dressing room the whole time. And it looks like the GAA came up with a GAA solution to a GAA problem with this whole alphabet allocation that will ensure Dublin are in dressing room 1 unless they are playing Armagh or Antrim. Now I've no problem with Dublin asking for this but I've a huge problem with the GAA for implementing this as it gives Dublin all the advantages, benefits and familiarity of being able to treat Croke Park as their home ground.

I can accept getting more people in to see our games can only be beneficial to the health of the association, hell I could even live with Dublin being the only team in the country who are guaranteed which end of the pitch they warm up at but the dressing room allocation (if it occurred as outlined above) is ripping the piss completely. If true it's time for all the counties to come together and ensure that the GAA enforces all aspects of match day routine in Croke Park on a fair and completely random basis.

Deep breaths - let's do this one by one

You have no idea, as illustrated by the words in bold above, whether any of your theory is true, whilst you also accept that there is absolutely no difference between the dressing rooms - hence no competitive advantage.

It would seem to me that this is completely pointless getting angry about. This is all confirmation bias - you think you're getting screwed by Dublin and you'll take any example to prove your bias. Definitely the wrong example.

Alphabetising seems to be as fair as any other solution - I would doubt there would be any objection if the DCB were asked to accept a coin toss - because there is no advantage either way.

Did you even bother to read the post? Deep breaths indeed.

[easytiger95]

We have 2 dressing rooms in Newport. They are both the same, except they are 'mirrors'. Our teams always use number 2, the away team uses number 1. We do that because our guys just feel comfortable in 'their' spot in the dressing room. It's a comfort and routine thing. It hardly makes them puck a ball better, but it does just reinforce the routine.

Having said all that, Dublin could probably tog out in the Croke Park hotel and it wouldn't make a difference.

I think your objection (although I don't agree with it) more plausible than a shadowy cabal in CP and the DCB doing deals to change a system to go with the alphabet, just to get a dressing room which is identical to the other down the corridor.

And true, with this present set of players, we have an inherent advantage, in that we have some of the best in the country.

As for my closing remarks above AZ and your response, the monies given to Dublin were not given for the purpose of providing a competitive advantage on the field in senior intercounty - they were to develop the games, hurling and football, at youth and club level, where there was a huge amount of competition from other sports. You're straying dangerously close to the shadowy rooms scenario.

I'm all for looking at funding - but my basic point stays the same - sport ain't fair. Chelsea find it easier to get players because the shopping in London is better for WAGS. You don't try and ban Harrods on the back of it.

Kerry won All Irelands in the 70s and 80s after only 3 serious games - the provincial system (which is a set up so unfair there is no comparison to it in world sport) was not banned after it.

Easytiger, can you *genuinely* not see that investing huge monies in coaching and games development every year, far more than other counties get, inevitably leads to better players and therefore a competitive advantage?

If you cannot see that, then I'm wasting my time talking to you. I know what the motivations were at the time, and I don't necessarily even think the funding should be pulled. I think other counties should be funded to allow the same sort of quality coaching and structures. That would at least give them the opportunity to even the playing field in terms of developing players and bridging the competitive gap to Dublin.

By the way, as regards the dressing room, I couldn't give a shite where they tog out. As I said, those sort of things are piss ant issues. I was just trying to give an opinion on why others might be a bit more exercised about it. It feeds into the familiar routine and the comfort of being in familiar surrounds.

And I agree with that, as I have said numerous times. But you also said

But someone who is receiving hugely disproportionate money from the GAA to INCREASE their competitive advantage from a developmental perspective has to have a fairly brass neck to tell the rest of us to suck it up.

We receive the money for development and to promote the games - it wasn't the idea to fuel a professional set up to win us All Irelands - which is the thrust of many people's points (and what I would take from the quote above) and why we are disagreeing.

I'd also say if Kildare are able to compete with us at minor and U-21 level (thus showing that there is at least a comparison between our developmental structures) that there may be other factors at play as well as financial ones which are contributing to the disparity?

Seems only reasonable.