Author Topic: Brexit.  (Read 619314 times)

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5535 on: December 07, 2018, 11:08:13 AM »
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.
i usse an speelchekor

johnnycool

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5536 on: December 07, 2018, 11:15:32 AM »
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.

It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5537 on: December 07, 2018, 11:35:46 AM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/06/day-theresa-mays-indecision-had-even-loyalists-wondering-will/

By Mrs May’s side was Julian Smith,
the Chief Whip, and arranged around the room were Remainers Philip Hammond,
Amber Rudd, David Lidington, David Gauke and Karen Bradley, and Brexiteers
Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Liam Fox. “I think people had turned up expecting her to
say ‘this is the preferred course’,” said one Cabinet source. “But instead it
was obvious she doesn’t really know what to do next.” Julian Smith set the tone by
admitting for the first time that the Government would lose the vote next
Tuesday if it goes ahead.
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RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5538 on: December 07, 2018, 11:50:36 AM »
It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

Exactly.

Since the current system obviously doesn't work - case in point - our local clowns (minster versions) being too stupid to know that our other local clowns (civil servant versions) didn't have a scooby when it came to RHI - you need someone competent coming in and overseeing it.

i usse an speelchekor

johnnycool

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5539 on: December 07, 2018, 12:26:06 PM »
It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

Exactly.

Since the current system obviously doesn't work - case in point - our local clowns (minster versions) being too stupid to know that our other local clowns (civil servant versions) didn't have a scooby when it came to RHI - you need someone competent coming in and overseeing it.

Knowing a few low level politicians who consider themselves as enlightened and one in particular who is getting loads of airtime for the Alliance, competent they are not. Liking the sound of your own voice seems to be a bigger prerequisite.

The Oxbridge set are no better when you read and listen to the warblings of Boris, Dave Cameron and so forth and the high ranking civil servants are all from the same set.

trailer

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5540 on: December 07, 2018, 01:13:04 PM »
It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

Exactly.

Since the current system obviously doesn't work - case in point - our local clowns (minster versions) being too stupid to know that our other local clowns (civil servant versions) didn't have a scooby when it came to RHI - you need someone competent coming in and overseeing it.

The Electorate are at fault. They elect them.
Mark Durkan is widely regarded as one of the best Parliamentarians around. He would be a serious asset at this moment in time. Who did the good people of Foyle vote for? Elisha McCallion lol. 

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5541 on: December 07, 2018, 02:00:37 PM »
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.

The conservatives were stupid to ask such an important question to an angry electorate in a referendum. FFS
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johnnycool

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5542 on: December 07, 2018, 02:05:55 PM »
It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

Exactly.

Since the current system obviously doesn't work - case in point - our local clowns (minster versions) being too stupid to know that our other local clowns (civil servant versions) didn't have a scooby when it came to RHI - you need someone competent coming in and overseeing it.

The Electorate are at fault. They elect them.
Mark Durkan is widely regarded as one of the best Parliamentarians around. He would be a serious asset at this moment in time. Who did the good people of Foyle vote for? Elisha McCallion lol.

Where's the value add in that?

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5543 on: December 07, 2018, 02:06:00 PM »
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.

The conservatives were stupid to ask such an important question to an angry electorate in a referendum. FFS

Correct. A huge risk that has spectacularly backfired.

red hander

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5544 on: December 07, 2018, 02:10:08 PM »
It doesn't matter who you elect, the Government will still be in charge.

These lads and ladies are all just figureheads, career politicians with never an original thought in their lives.

Exactly.

Since the current system obviously doesn't work - case in point - our local clowns (minster versions) being too stupid to know that our other local clowns (civil servant versions) didn't have a scooby when it came to RHI - you need someone competent coming in and overseeing it.

The Electorate are at fault. They elect them.
Mark Durkan is widely regarded as one of the best Parliamentarians around. He would be a serious asset at this moment in time. Who did the good people of Foyle vote for? Elisha McCallion lol.

Aye, dead on. He could stop Brexit singlehandedly with his brilliant debating skills, laying waste to his opponents' arguments in the Commons while firing bolts of lightning out of his arse and fireballs out of his eyes. How dare the people of Foyle reject such a great Parliamentarian and serious asset. What a bunch of f**king idiots they are...

Aaron Boone

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5545 on: December 07, 2018, 02:10:23 PM »
Philip Stephens

This is what happens when parliamentary democracies seek to shrug off responsibility. Referendums undermine political pluralism. As Margaret Thatcher used to say, they are a favourite device of demagogues and dictators. The so-called will of the people reduces liberal democracy to majoritarianism.

F88k off Philip Stephens.

if "parliamentary democracies" are not supposed to follow the will of the people, then scrap the idea of representative democracy and replace it with a meritocracy.

I'm personally sick of having useless incompetents that are not qualified for the roles they are in try to run things and have the wool pulled over their eyes by equally inept and incompetent civil servants.

How many of the current cabinet have professional qualifications appropriate to the roles they find themselves in?

Just a random selection
Minister for Energy & Clean growth - "read" geography at oxford
Minister for Universities, Sciences, Research & Innovation - Modern History at oxford
DEFRA - English at oxford
Transport minister - history in cambridge
Health minister - philosophy, politics and economics at oxford

Not one of them are suitably qualified to critically examine the work of the civil servants under them with any authority.

The conservatives were stupid to ask such an important question to an angry electorate in a referendum. FFS

Correct. A huge risk that has spectacularly backfired.

The question to the electorate was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?".

Noone knew then how difficult/impossible it actually is to leave the EU. So the question was a minefield.

mouview

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5546 on: December 07, 2018, 02:13:45 PM »
then put it to the people in a second referendum where Remain prevails and the whole sorry mess can be put behind us.

A referendum result would need to be +60% in favour of remain to "put it behind us", I can't see that happening. A slim remain might remove the immediate problem but it doesn't go away

It might make it go away for long enough to make the electorate just not care anymore. They're probably thoroughly fed-up as it is.

mouview

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5547 on: December 07, 2018, 02:17:19 PM »
Philip Stephens' mother was from Kiltimagh


   https://www.ft.com/content/b91dd274-f895-11e8-8b7c-6fa24bd5409c

   Theresa May has lost control of Brexit
      
      
               This is what happens when parliamentary democracies shuffle off responsibility
      
         Philip Stephens

So this is what they meant by taking back control. Theresa May’s government has drawn up plans to allocate space on European ferries arriving at the British port of Dover. Trucks carrying medicines will get permits to make the crossing from Calais; so too, perhaps, those with components for vital business supply chains. Britain’s consumers have been warned. There will not be enough room for luxuries such as fresh fruit and vegetables.

Crashing out of the EU in March without a deal would see the restoration overnight of Britain’s national sovereignty. This surely would be Brexit at its purest — manna for those in Mrs May’s party seeking a complete rupture with the continent. Decisions on the opening and closing of ports and borders would be a matter for the Westminster government alone. Britain, in the lurid language of the Brexiters, would have cast off the shackles. So runs the theory. Now the reality is beginning to impose itself. Calais-Dover by a large measure is Britain’s most important trade route. It operates with the consent and co-operation of France. Whitehall officials estimate the inevitable post-Brexit imposition at Calais of EU checks and controls would cut traffic — imports to, as well as exports from, Britain — by more than four-fifths. The effect would be to choke off supplies to much of British business and leave stranded in France much of the produce destined for British supermarket shelves. So much for sovereignty.For the prime minister such horror stories — and this is one of many — are the only argument she has for the dismal deal she has negotiated with the EU27. It is not enough. The closer Brexit looms, the more obvious the prospective damage to the nation’s prosperity and security. Mrs May’s agreement would delay some of the consequences and throw a veil over others. Taken in the round, it is a charade — a hapless attempt to wish away the yawning gulf between abstract concepts of sovereignty and real national power.Those tuning in to the parliamentary debate on the agreement could be forgiven for thinking the only big problem is a so-called backstop arrangement to guarantee an open border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.


Yet the then-Brexit minister Dominic Raab stated he didn't realise fully the importance of Dover port. Unbelievable Jeff.
Strangely, I get the feeling the DUP would be secretly pleased if there was another referendum and Brexit scrapped; it would get them out of the current boghole.

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5548 on: December 07, 2018, 02:30:48 PM »
Philip Stephens' mother was from Kiltimagh


   https://www.ft.com/content/b91dd274-f895-11e8-8b7c-6fa24bd5409c

   Theresa May has lost control of Brexit
      
      
               This is what happens when parliamentary democracies shuffle off responsibility
      
         Philip Stephens

So this is what they meant by taking back control. Theresa May’s government has drawn up plans to allocate space on European ferries arriving at the British port of Dover. Trucks carrying medicines will get permits to make the crossing from Calais; so too, perhaps, those with components for vital business supply chains. Britain’s consumers have been warned. There will not be enough room for luxuries such as fresh fruit and vegetables.

Crashing out of the EU in March without a deal would see the restoration overnight of Britain’s national sovereignty. This surely would be Brexit at its purest — manna for those in Mrs May’s party seeking a complete rupture with the continent. Decisions on the opening and closing of ports and borders would be a matter for the Westminster government alone. Britain, in the lurid language of the Brexiters, would have cast off the shackles. So runs the theory. Now the reality is beginning to impose itself. Calais-Dover by a large measure is Britain’s most important trade route. It operates with the consent and co-operation of France. Whitehall officials estimate the inevitable post-Brexit imposition at Calais of EU checks and controls would cut traffic — imports to, as well as exports from, Britain — by more than four-fifths. The effect would be to choke off supplies to much of British business and leave stranded in France much of the produce destined for British supermarket shelves. So much for sovereignty.For the prime minister such horror stories — and this is one of many — are the only argument she has for the dismal deal she has negotiated with the EU27. It is not enough. The closer Brexit looms, the more obvious the prospective damage to the nation’s prosperity and security. Mrs May’s agreement would delay some of the consequences and throw a veil over others. Taken in the round, it is a charade — a hapless attempt to wish away the yawning gulf between abstract concepts of sovereignty and real national power.Those tuning in to the parliamentary debate on the agreement could be forgiven for thinking the only big problem is a so-called backstop arrangement to guarantee an open border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.


Yet the then-Brexit minister Dominic Raab stated he didn't realise fully the importance of Dover port. Unbelievable Jeff.
Strangely, I get the feeling the DUP would be secretly pleased if there was another referendum and Brexit scrapped; it would get them out of the current boghole.

One of the DUP arseholes said recently that a no deal would really hurt the RoI, as if that would justify throwing 66 million people in the whole of  the  UK into absolute chaos which may include being unable to bury family members . The DUP are insane. 
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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #5549 on: December 07, 2018, 02:36:10 PM »
I think it's time to get real. While this withdrawal deal will more than likely fail, Brexit will happen. A 2nd referendum would be so divisive and very close, it's unlikely to give the clarity people are hoping for. All I can see is a fudge on May's deal, a 2nd vote on it, push out the transition period and into long drawn out trade talks. That's where we're headed.