Author Topic: Brexit.  (Read 373891 times)

Tony Baloney

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4260 on: July 18, 2018, 09:28:02 PM »
The votes taking place are only close because the Conservatives are split over the issues. If SF took their seats and voted they would be supporting one or other half of the tory party. The party under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher who most republicans hold responsible for the deaths of the hunger strikers. SF supporters would never forgive them for supporting either half of the tories.

They take seats in Stormont and form governments with unionists like Paisley, Dodds and Robinson who were responsible for the perpetuation of loyalist violence in the North so preventing one of the major f**k ups in UK history by voting with the Tories shouldn't be the sky caving in their heads.

They've flipped on several issues, not recognising Stormont etc etc. All the old excuses for not attending, (they wouldn't make a difference, etc) have been shown to be hollow so they really have no honest exemptions from this anymore.

I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats. It's not a grey area, when you vote SF, you're voting to not have a vote in Westminster. Its simple. I wouldn't say never, but abstentionism is along way away yet.


So are you telling me that over the course of the last 30 years, when the troubles were ended, UK~Ireland relationships improved, and a wee six power sharing government was formed, that Sinn Feinís rise in the ballot box for Westminster has been owed (even slightly) to their absenteeism policy?

You are of course entitled to believe this. But it doesnít add up at all.

I personally don't feel like I would stop voting SF just because they took their seats. However I do think it'd be an issue for others. Being honest SF voting in Westminster won't make much of a difference. If they did drop abstentionism I'd imagine there'd be an even bigger clamour for unified unionist candidates so why take the risk, just to vote in a meaningless deal-vote that will be vetoed by the EU anyway.
By not taking their seats and voting on key issues they give the Tories and the DUP a free pass. The end.

tiempo

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4261 on: July 18, 2018, 10:24:20 PM »
The votes taking place are only close because the Conservatives are split over the issues. If SF took their seats and voted they would be supporting one or other half of the tory party. The party under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher who most republicans hold responsible for the deaths of the hunger strikers. SF supporters would never forgive them for supporting either half of the tories.

They take seats in Stormont and form governments with unionists like Paisley, Dodds and Robinson who were responsible for the perpetuation of loyalist violence in the North so preventing one of the major f**k ups in UK history by voting with the Tories shouldn't be the sky caving in their heads.

They've flipped on several issues, not recognising Stormont etc etc. All the old excuses for not attending, (they wouldn't make a difference, etc) have been shown to be hollow so they really have no honest exemptions from this anymore.

I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats. It's not a grey area, when you vote SF, you're voting to not have a vote in Westminster. Its simple. I wouldn't say never, but abstentionism is along way away yet.


So are you telling me that over the course of the last 30 years, when the troubles were ended, UK~Ireland relationships improved, and a wee six power sharing government was formed, that Sinn Feinís rise in the ballot box for Westminster has been owed (even slightly) to their absenteeism policy?

You are of course entitled to believe this. But it doesnít add up at all.

I personally don't feel like I would stop voting SF just because they took their seats. However I do think it'd be an issue for others. Being honest SF voting in Westminster won't make much of a difference. If they did drop abstentionism I'd imagine there'd be an even bigger clamour for unified unionist candidates so why take the risk, just to vote in a meaningless deal-vote that will be vetoed by the EU anyway.
By not taking their seats and voting on key issues they give the Tories and the DUP a free pass. The end.

Hows that working out for the SNP? Sin ť.

Rossfan

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4262 on: July 18, 2018, 11:38:53 PM »
Westminster is shitting on Scotland daily as the gallant 35 try to take on 530 or so English MPs plus 24 non SNP Scottish MPs who vote as instructed by their parties.
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4263 on: July 19, 2018, 08:27:40 AM »
The votes taking place are only close because the Conservatives are split over the issues. If SF took their seats and voted they would be supporting one or other half of the tory party. The party under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher who most republicans hold responsible for the deaths of the hunger strikers. SF supporters would never forgive them for supporting either half of the tories.

They take seats in Stormont and form governments with unionists like Paisley, Dodds and Robinson who were responsible for the perpetuation of loyalist violence in the North so preventing one of the major f**k ups in UK history by voting with the Tories shouldn't be the sky caving in their heads.

They've flipped on several issues, not recognising Stormont etc etc. All the old excuses for not attending, (they wouldn't make a difference, etc) have been shown to be hollow so they really have no honest exemptions from this anymore.

I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats. It's not a grey area, when you vote SF, you're voting to not have a vote in Westminster. Its simple. I wouldn't say never, but abstentionism is along way away yet.

By that rational the same is true of those that vote for the DUP and their stance against SSM and ILA. People should just 'get it' and stop going on about it.

bennydorano

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4264 on: July 19, 2018, 09:41:19 AM »
I get the feeling that the ROI Government's position has changed from gleeful Schadenfreude to f**k this is going to be a absolute nightmare.

HiMucker

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4265 on: July 19, 2018, 09:55:19 AM »
The votes taking place are only close because the Conservatives are split over the issues. If SF took their seats and voted they would be supporting one or other half of the tory party. The party under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher who most republicans hold responsible for the deaths of the hunger strikers. SF supporters would never forgive them for supporting either half of the tories.

They take seats in Stormont and form governments with unionists like Paisley, Dodds and Robinson who were responsible for the perpetuation of loyalist violence in the North so preventing one of the major f**k ups in UK history by voting with the Tories shouldn't be the sky caving in their heads.

They've flipped on several issues, not recognising Stormont etc etc. All the old excuses for not attending, (they wouldn't make a difference, etc) have been shown to be hollow so they really have no honest exemptions from this anymore.

I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats. It's not a grey area, when you vote SF, you're voting to not have a vote in Westminster. Its simple. I wouldn't say never, but abstentionism is along way away yet.

By that rational the same is true of those that vote for the DUP and their stance against SSM and ILA. People should just 'get it' and stop going on about it.
That is false equivalence and you know it.  Ill not insult your intelligence by explaining why.

I would be open to the idea of the Shinners turning up to one of these key votes, voting and just walking away, giving a brief statement of the extraordinary reasons why.  Not sure how feasible that would be, and if parliament needs to know in advance to any such move.  It would be good craic to listen to the fall out from it, DUP and the Tories crying why it shouldn't be allowed.

Insane Bolt

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4266 on: July 19, 2018, 10:14:04 AM »
What I find very hard to understand is the relative silence of business leaders on Brexit and that no impact assessments have been done by government. The CEO of Airbus has spoken out

https://www.commpro.biz/airbus-ceo-hammers-uk-leadership-on-brexit/

awideisneverasgood

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4267 on: July 19, 2018, 10:15:51 AM »
I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats.

Here's the thing that p*sses me off.  Once they are elected, they are elected to represent the all the people of their constituency, not just the people that voted for them.

These are crucial times for us and they could and should be in Westminster casting votes which could really affect the future of everybody in the North.  Unless they are quietly happy for a hard brexit to happen as they believe that would increase the likelihood of a united ireland in the near future.

armaghniac

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4268 on: July 19, 2018, 10:27:53 AM »
By not taking their seats and voting on key issues they give the Tories and the DUP a free pass. The end.

In my opinion, this is a lazy analysis. Going to Westminster would give credit to the idea that is appropriate for a  load of British people to decide what is going to happen to NI over the heads of the people in NI. You might by accident have a couple of votes where you happened to hold the balance of power, but generally you'd be up against 600 British MPs and it would be a mugs game.

The SNP are there and nobody gives a damn about Scotland if there are enough English MPs to vote them down.

Add to that, if SF go to Westminster the Daily Mail, Telegraph et al would rant and rave and perhaps cause more loss of votes than SF would provide. 
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4269 on: July 19, 2018, 10:44:46 AM »
The votes taking place are only close because the Conservatives are split over the issues. If SF took their seats and voted they would be supporting one or other half of the tory party. The party under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher who most republicans hold responsible for the deaths of the hunger strikers. SF supporters would never forgive them for supporting either half of the tories.

They take seats in Stormont and form governments with unionists like Paisley, Dodds and Robinson who were responsible for the perpetuation of loyalist violence in the North so preventing one of the major f**k ups in UK history by voting with the Tories shouldn't be the sky caving in their heads.

They've flipped on several issues, not recognising Stormont etc etc. All the old excuses for not attending, (they wouldn't make a difference, etc) have been shown to be hollow so they really have no honest exemptions from this anymore.

I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats. It's not a grey area, when you vote SF, you're voting to not have a vote in Westminster. Its simple. I wouldn't say never, but abstentionism is along way away yet.

By that rational the same is true of those that vote for the DUP and their stance against SSM and ILA. People should just 'get it' and stop going on about it.
That is false equivalence and you know it.  Ill not insult your intelligence by explaining why.

I would be open to the idea of the Shinners turning up to one of these key votes, voting and just walking away, giving a brief statement of the extraordinary reasons why.  Not sure how feasible that would be, and if parliament needs to know in advance to any such move.  It would be good craic to listen to the fall out from it, DUP and the Tories crying why it shouldn't be allowed.

I disagree. You say they are elected not to take their seats. DUP are elected on - No to an ILA and No to SSM.
If SF are not taking their seats why bother standing? Why take the £?

I think it is a very fair criticism of their stance.

Oghams Law

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4270 on: July 19, 2018, 10:48:23 AM »
I don't understand this and why people don't get it. SF voters vote for them not to take their seats.

Here's the thing that p*sses me off.  Once they are elected, they are elected to represent the all the people of their constituency, not just the people that voted for them.

These are crucial times for us and they could and should be in Westminster casting votes which could really affect the future of everybody in the North.  Unless they are quietly happy for a hard brexit to happen as they believe that would increase the likelihood of a united ireland in the near future.
[/b]

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4271 on: July 19, 2018, 10:51:51 AM »
By not taking their seats and voting on key issues they give the Tories and the DUP a free pass. The end.

In my opinion, this is a lazy analysis. Going to Westminster would give credit to the idea that is appropriate for a  load of British people to decide what is going to happen to NI over the heads of the people in NI. You might by accident have a couple of votes where you happened to hold the balance of power, but generally you'd be up against 600 British MPs and it would be a mugs game.

The SNP are there and nobody gives a damn about Scotland if there are enough English MPs to vote them down.

Add to that, if SF go to Westminster the Daily Mail, Telegraph et al would rant and rave and perhaps cause more loss of votes than SF would provide.

Well at this moment 7 constituencies (Soon to be 8) in NI have no elected representatives either in Stormont or Westminster. And this idea that Westminster doesn't matter is rubbish. This week has proven that it clearly does.

However, in reality, SF are playing a long game here. They are an anti-EU party. They are happy to see the UK leave and would welcome a vote in the ROI on the issue. This bluster about no hard border etc is exactly that. They want chaos in NI. High unemployment, lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, cuts to health and education. In some world they see this as a way forward to a UI. Problem is that may take 20, 30 or 40 years. In that time 2 or 3 generations of people will suffer.

Rossfan

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4272 on: July 19, 2018, 10:56:02 AM »
If SF as alleged get their way and that the 6 Cos becomes a total basket case altogether who are they going to unite with?
We will be voting NO in such a scenario.
If SF are anti EU who the fk do they expect to pay for this basket case 6 Cos?
2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

trueblue1234

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4273 on: July 19, 2018, 11:03:32 AM »
If SF as alleged get their way and that the 6 Cos becomes a total basket case altogether who are they going to unite with?
We will be voting NO in such a scenario.
If SF are anti EU who the fk do they expect to pay for this basket case 6 Cos?

Is this the royal "we"? 

If that was true, then more shame on you. An opportunity to unite the country and you would say no? Maybe the South should make up for some of the past and take a hand in creating a better United Ireland even it it means short term uncertainty rather than just look to see what it can get out of it. If that feeling was prevalent in the south then it would be hugely disappointing.
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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #4274 on: July 19, 2018, 11:07:47 AM »
If SF as alleged get their way and that the 6 Cos becomes a total basket case altogether who are they going to unite with?
We will be voting NO in such a scenario.
If SF are anti EU who the fk do they expect to pay for this basket case 6 Cos?

There's no 'If'. They have campaigned for a No Vote on every single EU referendum in the ROI. They are an anti EU party.