Author Topic: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?  (Read 10375 times)

muppet

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2015, 11:33:39 AM »
Well who's gonna give up their fry on account of the latest about bacon and sausages?

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34615621

I presume that processed meats includes the black and white puddin too?

The WHO did stress that meat also had health benefits.

Cancer Research UK said this was a reason to cut down rather than give up red and processed meats.

And added that an occasional bacon sandwich would do little harm.


This is all a bit odd.

Smoking, as we know, causes cancer. Thus we are told to give up smoking and packets of cigarettes carry strongly worded warnings regarding the dangers. Furthermore, we are now banned from smoking at work, in pubs and restaurants and even open air football stadia. There have been ads on the media for decades educating us on the risks and effects smoking has.

But there is no such dramatics with processed meat. Why not? If someone has to ask if black & white pudding is processed meat, then it would suggest there has been little or no education on this threat.

A quick google brought this active up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2661797/

There are two interesting lines in the conclusions:

Individuals who eat more processed meat than average often tend (i) to eat less fruits and vegetables, (ii) to drink more alcoholic beverages, (iii) to smoke more tobacco and (iv) to eat more calories, more fat and be more obese and less active, than those who do not eat processed meat.

The fact that processed meat intake increases colorectal cancer risk seems established from the published meta-analyses of epidemiologic studies. The evidence is weak, however, since the RRs were all less than 2, and observational studies never fully avoid biases and confounders. The excess risk in the highest category of processed meat-eaters is comprised between 20 and 50% compared with non-eaters, which is modest compared with established risk factors like cigarette smoking for lung cancer (RR=20). However, the excess risk per gram of intake is clearly higher than that of fresh red meat.

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screenexile

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2015, 11:45:21 AM »
Well who's gonna give up their fry on account of the latest about bacon and sausages?

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34615621

I presume that processed meats includes the black and white puddin too?

The WHO did stress that meat also had health benefits.

Cancer Research UK said this was a reason to cut down rather than give up red and processed meats.

And added that an occasional bacon sandwich would do little harm.


This is all a bit odd.

Smoking, as we know, causes cancer. Thus we are told to give up smoking and packets of cigarettes carry strongly worded warnings regarding the dangers. Furthermore, we are now banned from smoking at work, in pubs and restaurants and even open air football stadia. There have been ads on the media for decades educating us on the risks and effects smoking has.

But there is no such dramatics with processed meat. Why not? If someone has to ask if black & white pudding is processed meat, then it would suggest there has been little or no education on this threat.

A quick google brought this active up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2661797/

There are two interesting lines in the conclusions:

Individuals who eat more processed meat than average often tend (i) to eat less fruits and vegetables, (ii) to drink more alcoholic beverages, (iii) to smoke more tobacco and (iv) to eat more calories, more fat and be more obese and less active, than those who do not eat processed meat.

The fact that processed meat intake increases colorectal cancer risk seems established from the published meta-analyses of epidemiologic studies. The evidence is weak, however, since the RRs were all less than 2, and observational studies never fully avoid biases and confounders. The excess risk in the highest category of processed meat-eaters is comprised between 20 and 50% compared with non-eaters, which is modest compared with established risk factors like cigarette smoking for lung cancer (RR=20). However, the excess risk per gram of intake is clearly higher than that of fresh red meat.

Surely that reaffirms your point that you are more likely to get cancer from smoking than from eating processed meat moderately?

I eat a lot of processed meat it's very rare a day goes by I don't have at least a slice of ham. As with everything though it's up to the individual to make an informed decision. My Grandad smoked 40 a day and lived until he was 80 so it's about educating people as much as possible and letting them make their own decisions.

Banning processed meat from public places is a bit different to banning smoking as someone eating a bacon butty beside me doesn't impact on my health in the same way someone smoking beside me does!

Canalman

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2015, 12:46:31 PM »
The level you are classed "obese" is downright laughable imo. A stone  and a bit overweight will do it. 36 inch waist also.

Fair amount of publicity now about "child obesity" and from my far from scientific viewpoint in observing people out and about. it is the middle aged people in Ireland by and large that are carrying weight and not the young people.

Tell me this , why is the life expectancy rising when processed food is supposedly cancer causing.

general_lee

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2015, 01:18:29 PM »
Does it not really come down to basic common sense? Eating bacon dripping in grease with fat hanging off it three or four times a week isn't going to be good for you. Even if it doesn't increase the chances of giving you cancer it won't exactly do your cholesterol levels much good. When I first heard the news on this I made one last massive fry up and it will probably be my last  :'(

macdanger2

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2015, 01:48:30 PM »

Tell me this , why is the life expectancy rising when processed food is supposedly cancer causing.

Relative to say 50 years ago:

Less manual labour
Better nutrition and information about the importance of nutrition
Better access to healthcare
Better medicines
Better detection rates


muppet

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2015, 03:28:59 PM »
Well who's gonna give up their fry on account of the latest about bacon and sausages?

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34615621

I presume that processed meats includes the black and white puddin too?

The WHO did stress that meat also had health benefits.

Cancer Research UK said this was a reason to cut down rather than give up red and processed meats.

And added that an occasional bacon sandwich would do little harm.


This is all a bit odd.

Smoking, as we know, causes cancer. Thus we are told to give up smoking and packets of cigarettes carry strongly worded warnings regarding the dangers. Furthermore, we are now banned from smoking at work, in pubs and restaurants and even open air football stadia. There have been ads on the media for decades educating us on the risks and effects smoking has.

But there is no such dramatics with processed meat. Why not? If someone has to ask if black & white pudding is processed meat, then it would suggest there has been little or no education on this threat.

A quick google brought this active up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2661797/

There are two interesting lines in the conclusions:

Individuals who eat more processed meat than average often tend (i) to eat less fruits and vegetables, (ii) to drink more alcoholic beverages, (iii) to smoke more tobacco and (iv) to eat more calories, more fat and be more obese and less active, than those who do not eat processed meat.

The fact that processed meat intake increases colorectal cancer risk seems established from the published meta-analyses of epidemiologic studies. The evidence is weak, however, since the RRs were all less than 2, and observational studies never fully avoid biases and confounders. The excess risk in the highest category of processed meat-eaters is comprised between 20 and 50% compared with non-eaters, which is modest compared with established risk factors like cigarette smoking for lung cancer (RR=20). However, the excess risk per gram of intake is clearly higher than that of fresh red meat.

Surely that reaffirms your point that you are more likely to get cancer from smoking than from eating processed meat moderately?

I eat a lot of processed meat it's very rare a day goes by I don't have at least a slice of ham. As with everything though it's up to the individual to make an informed decision. My Grandad smoked 40 a day and lived until he was 80 so it's about educating people as much as possible and letting them make their own decisions.

Banning processed meat from public places is a bit different to banning smoking as someone eating a bacon butty beside me doesn't impact on my health in the same way someone smoking beside me does!

It does. But you wouldn't really think it reading the WHO statement. I am curious to know if there has been a new study, the article scandalously doesn't reference any.

The first line I quote from the study hints that people who eat lots of processed meat are also inclined to be more exposed to other cancer risks. It doesn't clearly state that this could distort the stats, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to read it that way, especially given the 2nd quote.

My Pop-Science amateur radar is in overdrive after reading Ben Goldacre's Bad Science:D
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omaghjoe

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2015, 06:17:12 AM »
Yes bacon is now in the same category as plutonium... and the advice from the WHO as to whether to eat it or not is still very unclear, it will cause cancer but maybe not if you dont eat it all the time.
 
Processed food would appear not to be on the whole beneficial for your health, its consumption seems to be linked to Western Diseases. But at end of the day thatís my opinion only
I enjoy bacon and will continue to eat it however my consumption has tailed off to nothing being in the states. I eat very little processed food these days and put on very little weight unless I am boozin more than normal. And we know it causes cancer but can be good for your heart so..
 
That report is interesting reading Muppet but full of complete contradictions for anything conclusive which they as much state in their conclusions. Is this the actual report that the WHO used? If it is the report seems to say that the nitrates are the biggest likely cause of the problem not processed meats.....

The bad science argument is strong tho as Muppet says, it studies demographics and doesnt take into account the other cancer causing suspects.
Its statistical evidence, not very scientific and (at the risk of opening a can of worms with easytiger) certainly not direct empirical evidence that processed meat causes cancer, any studies that find a direct link seems to be contradicted by the next study that doesn't. There is also likely a wide range of sources for epidemiological stats and consequently data quality varies widely.

I also alluded to what constitutes processed meat... Is black pudding processed meat if its made just with blood, fat and oats? I suspect at least fat would include it, but my point was more about the term meat, is it meat or processed animal products? On another angle of what is or isnt, is mince included? Google says no, so then are burgers?...Yes apparently!...so what if they are homemade from mince? If not, then what about homemade sausages...? You could go on all day. And then there is the specifics of which processed meat is worse... what's the sausage consumption rate to cancer v bacon for example...are butcher made sausages better?...how do you know its not just deli meats?...etc... etc
 
Now there should be no issue for labeling something like smoking as cancer causing without cause and effect evidence as it doesnt really provide any other form of health benefit and it is off the charts in terms of being a carcinogen in comparison to processed meat. Food tho does provide other health benefits, so there is a chance that you could be encouraging some people to deprive themselves of nutrition that they might not get which opens the door to other diseases. Also by making a statement like they have could seriously impact livelihoods connected to producing those foods, and with the evidence as vague as it seems that's a pretty serious thing to be doing.

The WHO's lack of consensus about sugar is another elephant in the room, but its not specifically part of this equation so to go off on the WHO inconsistencies and limitations would be playing the man. But I do suspect trade diplomacy plays a massive role in their decisions

My personal advice would be to stay away from processed foods as much as possible, and while admittedly it might not be practical to do this, use the rule of the more processed the food, the further you should stay away. Stay away from the xanthan gum (bacteria feces), titanium dioxide, and those nasty nitrates, also if it doesnít go off,  donít eat it!

T Fearon

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2015, 07:00:45 AM »
Simple one word answer to title of this thread: Weight

muppet

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Re: Obesity in Ireland, What's goin on?
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2015, 08:47:40 AM »
Simple one word answer to title of this thread: Weight

What? Weight is the cause of obesity!

Can you back that up with a link or something?

You may be the first person to ever link the two, so I think we need some evidence please.
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