Author Topic: The future of laois hurling  (Read 178863 times)

Keyser Söze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1185 on: October 18, 2020, 02:23:19 PM »
I understand that there are good S&C programmes available for all squads...but what happens to the guys betweet U17 & U20 was my point. It is when they are not officially part of Inter County squads is the problem (or opportunity).
Granted a small number will progress almost immediately to U20 and will be looked after there.
BUT
In 3 years time, they will need the bulk of yesterdays squad (the guys who won't play U20 in 2021 or 2022) to be equally up to scratch S&C wise in order to stand any chance of competing.
It's what happens these guys that will determine the ability of an U20 panel to compete in 2023 (or any year).
They won't disappear in October 2020 and magically reappear as Inter County level athletes in December 2022.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 02:25:55 PM by Keyser Söze »
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.......

finbar o tool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1186 on: October 18, 2020, 02:51:10 PM »
By that stage the hope is they are properly trained in the gym and will be able to continue their development on there own! Once you leave minor you are an adult, they need to be able to look after themselves at that point!
Also, Mike Henchy and the GDAs are running courses for coaches and encouraging clubs to run their own athletic development programmes in clubs, with the help of the GDAs, how many clubs promote this or get their coaches to attend? A few but not enough!
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

Keyser Söze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1187 on: October 18, 2020, 03:56:38 PM »
I understand that some of this will (and has to) happen at club level and all improvements there are welcome. Certainly the bulk of the actual training can be done individually or collectively at club grounds where appropriate facilities exist.
However all other sports and indeed at least most other GAA counties also operate high performance units, to which the elite level athletes are connected and from where they receive direction.
There is also a lot to be said for the culture of excellence and higher standards that can be achieved when you group high performers together. There is an element of accountability , probably controlled by testing and measurement at regular enough intervals.
Also, science and standard changes. This is fed down through the levels so that what’s cutting edge now at club level May already be somewhat outdated at InterCounty level. It is vital that that Laois GAA have the absolute best personnel directly employed and working with InterCounty panels year round. While also spreading the gospel to clubs & club coaches. I don’t mean somebody who is also responsible for skills coaching, summer camps, admin of development squads etc.
Is Mike Henchy an S&C professional or is he also doing the above? I think maybe Coffey is? Genuine questions.

I don’t think operating at club level alone for the next two years will enable the bulk of yesterday’s  panel to compete at InterCounty U20 level in 2023 (or any group in any year).
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.......

finbar o tool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1188 on: October 18, 2020, 05:01:31 PM »
High performance units?? Please expand?
I think what you are getting at is the issue of moving from u17 to u20 intercounty, there will be a few that will go straight from minor to u20, and those lads will have the connection and proper guidance you mention. But it's the same as the original minor (u18) going from there to the old grade of u21.
The difference now is there is the athletic development program in place, so players joining an u13 or u14 squad next year will be properly developed and educated in the gym. So when they leave the u17 grade they are well capable, and hopefully in the habit of, continuing their own physical development.
After that it's up to the clubs to do their part in setting up athletic development, with the help of the GDAs, Henchy is the games development manager, and a good one too. Coffey is S&C qualified.
As for getting the best people in as coaches, for sure that's the way to go, but the coach development is the key to that as good men are hard to find! And then get them to commit! Clubs need to push the coach education for their coaches too.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 05:03:58 PM by finbar o tool »
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

Keyser Söze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1189 on: October 19, 2020, 10:23:41 AM »
I feel I’ve already explained what I mean. See quoted message below.

A group/panel/unit in which we group those leaving minor & not going straight to U20. So you would have two years worth in there at any one time; 18 & 19 year olds.
They are brought together at regular intervals during this two years. They are given the best of direction etc re S&C and tested regularly to ensure accountability.
We perform pitifully at u21/u20 most years. And that’s going back decades.
Sending players back to their clubs & forgetting about them until December/January of their u20 year is not going to work, it never has. We then spend 3 months trying (& failing) to get them up to speed physically for U20. Time is very limited with this group (and time spent trying to catch up physicall  is time that should be spent on hurling).

This
Wouldn’t cost a fortune
Wouldn’t take players away from clubs
Wouldn’t expect players to give up more than 2/3 nights a month for collective work

Could lead to a physically well prepared U20 team each year
Could increase standards & accountability among the group
Could lead to better results at u20 level
Could provide a pool of players to help boost numbers at u20 level when they are tight due to seniors
Could provide a pathway for late developers to turn into Senior IC players .

Or we can do as you suggest and hope that hurling in the leagues & club championship for 2 years while tipping away to various levels & standards themselves at S&C will work.

The information, techniques & general standard of conditioning covered as you mention at U13s & U15s isn’t in the same ballpark as conditioning for u20/senior level. It’s not a case of doing the same thing for 5 years and getting fitter and stronger. Bodies adapt, change & react in different ways. That’s why Senior IC teams carry serious cutting edge people in this area. By your logic they are barely required- sure the players already know what to do from their days in Development Squads.

If the person coordinating this group was a CB employee it would work best.
They would then be available to provide assistance (remotely or in person) in between the group sessions.
The same person could coordinate both the football & hurling groups.

It’s an opinion/suggestion etc. You don’t have to agree with it. But I don’t think you can argue that we have managed the transition from 18-21/17-20 successfully over the past 30 years.

I understand that there are good S&C programmes available for all squads...but what happens to the guys betweet U17 & U20 was my point. It is when they are not officially part of Inter County squads is the problem (or opportunity).
Granted a small number will progress almost immediately to U20 and will be looked after there.
BUT
In 3 years time, they will need the bulk of yesterdays squad (the guys who won't play U20 in 2021 or 2022) to be equally up to scratch S&C wise in order to stand any chance of competing.
It's what happens these guys that will determine the ability of an U20 panel to compete in 2023 (or any year).
They won't disappear in October 2020 and magically reappear as Inter County level athletes in December 2022.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.......

finbar o tool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1190 on: October 19, 2020, 11:54:23 AM »
Couldn't disagree with any of that keyser, would be great to have that kind of a set up. However I do believe there was an attempt at doing that last year, and out of 20 or so players only 3/4 turned up. Don't know the full details.
My logic isn't that S&C coaches aren't required I never alluded to that! course its not the same at 13 as it is at u20! they all progress their gym work as they rise through the squads, it's all individualised and managed very well, all players don't get the same work to do but they all develop and progress.
What I'm saying is if you leave u17 and don't make the U20 IC, in the absence of a program like you describe above, they HAVE to carry it on by themselves! But a few years ago they would not have been able to do that as efficiently as they can now leaving an u17 squad. The initial couple of posts suggested there was no S&C work going on which isn't the case. There will be 40 odd players at each development squad, not all of them will make it to u20 or senior IC, but they will have a base knowledge and habits built up is what I'm hoping, and will continue this on their own, or through club athletic development if the club has it in place. There are many players that hurl IC up to minor and never put on a Laois Jersey after that. I'm thinking of Laois hurling in general, not just the inter County. And this would help the late bloomers too as you've mentioned.
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

Keyser Söze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1191 on: October 19, 2020, 12:35:03 PM »
 I think we were talking about two different things so.
Of course it is important to look after all hurlers. I think most serious clubs have made great strides in this area over the past 4/5 years.
There should be a reasonably well equipped gym in all clubs (or in conjunction with local community). If there isn’t the club needs to look at itself.

I was focusing on the result Saturday and to come up with a way that ensures that group can compete properly at U20 level in 3 years. And the same for last years minors & next years minors etc.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.......

merman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1192 on: October 19, 2020, 12:55:13 PM »
I think Keyser's idea is really excellent.
And I also think in Jason Coffey, we have the person to drive it.

Last January/February, over half of our secondary schools were running S&C programmes before class for our development panels. When we get back to normal...if we get back to normal...this needs to be encouraged and enhanced. Players from U14 to U16 have three years to get themselves physically ready before their final year of minor.
All our Development Panels are guaranteed one Athletic Development session a week and this needs to be continued. Mentors/Coaches will come and go so the onus is on Jason, Mike Henchy and the GDA team to make sure that this time is protected. If this isn't protected, a coaching team will come along and deviate from the plan. Athletic Development needs to be rigidly consistent and measured.
Finbar is right; the structures that were put in place over the last couple of years will alleviate some of the concerns.
One small thing I would say is that we also need to make sure we expand the base of our pyramid. We need a minimum of 48 players on our U14 panels. This should be set in stone and if it means splitting a panel east/west or north/south, so be it. We have to allow for fall-offs and the players coming in from 'the cold' must be the exception rather than the norm. The question of dual players is also a difficult edge to square. I think dual players should be facilitated where possible but I know there is a very valid counter-argument.
I have sympathy for the current minor management and didn't share the negative view that some had...save for one issue. Their panel didn't really evolve between U14 and U17. They started with a small group and only added players this year who became available when they hit U16. I understand their reasoning but vehemently disagree with it. We need to ensure that every 13/14 year old who 'might' have something to offer, is given the chance to do so. 

On Keyser's suggestion, I think the majority of our county minors will be in transition/5th year so we have access to them for another year and a half at least. There will be very few in 6th year with kids starting primary school later now.
If Jason (or whoever) can make sure that they are monitored with a coherent schools-programme then that is a great start. Running an Easter, Summer and Halloween "camp" where the U14s, U15s, U16s and "U19"s (minus those on Minor/U20) panels come together for testing and skills sessions could be a massive benefit.
I understand the above is already planned for within U14-U16 panels and Keyser is right, the GDAs will need to take ownership of the crop between minor and U20.

There's probably nothing radical being proposed here but it does involve joined-up thinking and a collaborative approach between different coaches in different codes.
I think Mike Henchy would be well-able to put a system in place and hopefully the players, clubs and coaches can get on board with it.

Giovanni

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1193 on: October 19, 2020, 12:56:19 PM »
Very good post Keyser.

However, I do think there is an overemphasis on strength and conditioning generally. If strength and conditioning was the missing ingredient, Dublin would have been doing better at all levels but they're not. This is not to dismiss S&C but it needs to be given the right level of priority.

The system you propose, which would be great, should aim to bring lads on not just in terms of physical development, although this is clearly relevant. The "standards" you talk about should also involve skills development, mental development (and especially trying to inculcate a winning mindset), team ethic, humility and community responsibilities/leadership. All of these are important ingredients in producing a winning team and none should be forgotten in preparations.

blueandwhite1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1194 on: October 19, 2020, 01:00:38 PM »
Amazing how much wisdom after the event there is on here. Wrong management, poor S&C etc. etc. In my view Offaly were coming from a better place. They had no expectations based on how lads played 3-4 years ago and probably worked much harder to make up ground. They developed, we rested on our laurels.

It's not all lost for these young lads but the kick up the hole might be best thing ever happened to them. Major ground to make up between now and U20.

Keyser Söze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1195 on: October 19, 2020, 01:15:27 PM »
To be honest B&W I think posters have been quite measured in their posts re management etc.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.......

merman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1196 on: October 19, 2020, 01:16:31 PM »
To be honest B&W I think posters have been quite measured in their posts re management etc.

I agree.

finbar o tool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1197 on: October 19, 2020, 01:26:39 PM »
Blue&white you are right there, and I know I'm bashing the management here but this particular management team have had this group since u14/15, and they have been about one thing and one thing only, winning. Not developing a group of 30/40 as mentioned above. That's why there was a lot of dissent to them getting the minor job in the first place! And I think their whole approach has come back to bite them a bit Saturday.
Giovanni is right also, need to get the balance right, and get coach education to the fore, the S&C structures are in place now, or are a lot better. Really good coaches are very important too.
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

Laois Rising

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1198 on: October 19, 2020, 04:07:00 PM »
Come on lads we all know the real reason Laois minors were beaten at the weekend. Sure this Forum leaked the video of the Waterford Laois challenge match. I hear Offaly management had the link within minutes of it going up here!!

Joking aside. I feel the occasion may have got to our lads on the day. There was such focus on them in build up to the game-consistently hearing that they our best minor team in over a decade, having Derek McGrath involved, on the right side of the draw etc... It's easy for lads that age to feel the nerves and have an off day as a consequence of built up expectation put on their shoulders within the county. Offaly have a good team too this year and with no pressure on them- it was set up for them to ambush us in Birr. It's a pity these lads do not have a backdoor game to regroup as I feel they would give a far better account of themselves given the opportunity.

That said, I concur with the general consensus regarding the management team. A situation that should not be repeated with future minor squads. 

Zooming around

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 182
    • View Profile
Re: The future of laois hurling
« Reply #1199 on: October 19, 2020, 05:06:15 PM »
I said it before and ill say it again. When will the county board realise that parents with young lads on the team and over county teams/development squads is a complete disaster.  We need to be looking at fresh former players or people with the profile of derek mcgrath who have no club bias or agendas behind them. I know it didnt affect the game today but the last 4 years have ultimately been brutal with the talent available. The talent is there in laois but needs proper development. Not sold to the highest bidder as was the case this year.
This years manager left out 2 of the best prosects that i know off over personal squabbles or vendettas. Would that happen in any other serious hurling county.
Young stephen murphy from The harps was the best full back by a country mile in this years club championship and marked offaly danger man Luke carey off the field i believe in a leinster final for johnstown against birr earlier this year. But because he left the panel at u14 of his own accord the laois manager refused to put him on the panel this year.


Can I just clarify. You say they shouldn't have been picked as mentors because they are parents. Then you give out about them leaving off lads because of "personal squabbles or vendettas". Which is it? What was the problem with the fact that they are parents?

To me, the whole blame lies with Derek McGrath. He is a complete and proven bluffer and the side show surrounding him borders on a circus. His drills are pathetic with nothing less than a million cones dotted all over the pitch. When these lads were younger they played brilliant off the cuff fast delivery hurling and all this has now been undone with over tactical tippy tappy scientific shite.

Two things stood out from a positional sense. Moving Padraig Brennan out of centre back and playing a two man full forward line with two small lads is just stupid.

If the lads over the team had just gotten on with it themselves without McGrath they would have done much better.