Author Topic: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race  (Read 10713 times)

Manning18

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #210 on: June 26, 2020, 02:22:11 PM »
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

dublin7

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #211 on: June 26, 2020, 02:23:47 PM »
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.

One benefit of Covid 19 was most of those matches were replayed on tv over the last few months. There's a common theme in these games (excluding Mayo screw ups). Mayo tended to dominate the 1st halves but their territorial/possession advantage was never reflected on the scoreboard. Dublin with their superior forwards always did enough to keep them in touch.  In 2017/2o18 it was Andy Moran leading Mayo and not COC in the forwards. Everything went through him as the target man/leader of the forwards. COC hasn't got the strength/pace to win his own ball against top defenders and needs the likes of McLoughlin/Moran or half backs coming forward to do the work for him and create space.

Any year Mayo reached the final COC was probably the top scorer, but that's not a surprise as he is the teams free taker. As the freetaker no one is going to get close to him unless they bang in goals every game. You would expect to kick 4 points just from frees every game. It's not a coincidence that the top scorers in the football championship last year - Cathal McShane, Dean Rock & Sean O'Shea are the regular freetakers for their team just like COC. If the top scorers were based on scores from play only the table would have a far different look.

Obviously a pointed free is the same as a point from play, but I'd argue the previous 3 all contribute more from play for their team than COC the last few years.   

Angelo

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #212 on: June 26, 2020, 02:29:46 PM »
Mayo lacking scoring power to win any of their 2012,2013, 2016, 2017 finals is a bit of myth, Mayo problems in finals was self inflicted. A bad habit of conceding goals that were easy to avoid, goal keeping errors at key stages in games and OGs.

Mayos last final appearance 3 years ago had forwards that included the seasons top scorer Cillian O Connor and Andy Moran the footballer of the year yet Mayo still found a way to lose and Vaughan foolishly getting himself played a big part in that final defeat.

Would agree. Mayo always have habit conceding goals at vital times in finals. 2016 was a freak with 2 own goals. Other than Cafferkey in 2012 struggled at full back. Higgins beside him, a good footballer but probably too loose for corner back and caught out in big games. With half backs bombing forward needed a midfielder and possibly half forward dropping back to cover.

One benefit of Covid 19 was most of those matches were replayed on tv over the last few months. There's a common theme in these games (excluding Mayo screw ups). Mayo tended to dominate the 1st halves but their territorial/possession advantage was never reflected on the scoreboard. Dublin with their superior forwards always did enough to keep them in touch.  In 2017/2o18 it was Andy Moran leading Mayo and not COC in the forwards. Everything went through him as the target man/leader of the forwards. COC hasn't got the strength/pace to win his own ball against top defenders and needs the likes of McLoughlin/Moran or half backs coming forward to do the work for him and create space.

Any year Mayo reached the final COC was probably the top scorer, but that's not a surprise as he is the teams free taker. As the freetaker no one is going to get close to him unless they bang in goals every game. You would expect to kick 4 points just from frees every game. It's not a coincidence that the top scorers in the football championship last year - Cathal McShane, Dean Rock & Sean O'Shea are the regular freetakers for their team just like COC. If the top scorers were based on scores from play only the table would have a far different look.

Obviously a pointed free is the same as a point from play, but I'd argue the previous 3 all contribute more from play for their team than COC the last few years.

O'Connor also has the caveat of taking all frees for Mayo, Kerry have Clifford for the right sided frees, Dublin Mannion, Tyrone Harte, Morgan also takes the long range frees and 45s. Donegal have McBrearty etc.

MayoBuck

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #213 on: June 26, 2020, 02:41:09 PM »
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

Angelo

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #214 on: June 26, 2020, 02:59:54 PM »
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.

MayoBuck

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #215 on: June 26, 2020, 03:55:33 PM »
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.

I mean, they obviously talk about him sometimes. It's pretty hard to avoid when he's scoring hat tricks and last minute equalisers in an all Ireland final. He never never gets the same praise of other top forwards in the country. Brady is an entertaining guy to listen to, but as a pundit he always wants to say something controversial. Having Keegan number 1 wouldn't have grabbed anyone's attention.

I posted numerous examples previously of him creating his own chances and setting up others. It's no use with you though. The cork game in 2017 is another example. I doubt any Armagh forwards have had a better performance than that in the last decade. I obviously haven't checked this but I'd guess around half of Lee Keegan's scores have been set up by Cillian.

Angelo

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #216 on: June 26, 2020, 04:07:30 PM »
Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.


You ask who is proclaiming him as a top forward? That's been the entire theme of the thread. One of your comrades is claiming they'd take him over Michael Murphy and Conor McManus. You then spend paragraphs trying to defend him as if he were a top forward.

The 3 scores you mentioned there? Kerry score had 1-3 out of the 2-5 from placed balls in 100 mins, with the other goal being a tap in. The middle score doesnt exist. The last 1-9 mentioned v Dublin was all from placed balls. If you're trying to argue that he's a good freetaker (inside 35) or penalty taker, noone is arguing with you there

Surely for somebody to be overrated there must be national pundits praising him constantly? Not a couple of posters on gaaboard. I consider him a top forward but that's my opinion of course. The main reason I posted all that previously was to debunk Angelo's theories of him being a weak link on the team.

He also won that penalty vs Kerry. Mea culpa, it was only 1-6 he got in that other game vs Dublin.

National pundits do talk him up, somebody posted up David Brady calling him Mayo's greatest players. He's regularly talked of as a top forward, for me he's the weak link in that Mayo forward line and it's guys like Doherty, Diarmuid O'Connor and McLoughlin who are criminally underrated.

O'Connor is the guy I see on that Mayo team and the one I look at and say they need more from. He can finish but they could do with him winning more ball, creating his own chances, making space for others with his movement. The top players can do all of that as well as finish and that is why he's not a top forward.

I mean, they obviously talk about him sometimes. It's pretty hard to avoid when he's scoring hat tricks and last minute equalisers in an all Ireland final. He never never gets the same praise of other top forwards in the country. Brady is an entertaining guy to listen to, but as a pundit he always wants to say something controversial. Having Keegan number 1 wouldn't have grabbed anyone's attention.

I posted numerous examples previously of him creating his own chances and setting up others. It's no use with you though. The cork game in 2017 is another example. I doubt any Armagh forwards have had a better performance than that in the last decade. I obviously haven't checked this but I'd guess around half of Lee Keegan's scores have been set up by Cillian.

That's because he's not a top forward. He doesn't win enough ball, his movement is not clever enough, he doesn't have the pace, power and trickery to create that time of space, nor does he has the speed of thought to create things out of nothing, he's not strong enough off his weaker side. These are the traits that set the top class forwards apart from guys like O'Connor, Andy Moran had an awful lot of those traits.

I think you'll find most of Lee Keegans scores are created for by Lee Keegan himself. He's the guy bursting from the half back line, breaking challenges, beating men and running 60 or 70 yards at full pelt to get on the end.

Stefan Campbell reached a level of performance last year AGAINST Mayo that I have never see Cillian O'Connor reach in his entire career. I haven't watched a Mayo game where O'Connor has been the best Mayo player on the pitch never mind the best player on the pitch.

O'Connor would remind me a lot of Dara O'Cinneide, a decent player and a very good finisher but O'Cinneide was never a player who was going to destroy a team in a huge game, he was never a go to man for Kerry. He was in that team because we was reliable from the placed ball and he was a decent finisher who put some scores on the board but he wasn't someone who was going to cause panic in the oppositions ranks.

MayoBuck

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #217 on: June 26, 2020, 04:48:52 PM »
I've given numerous examples of him scoring and creating things off scraps but you won't acknowledge that. You just make these arbitrary comments like - I've never seen a mayo game when he was the dominant player. Or I've never seen him get 3 quick fire points at the end of a qualifier game (when his team needed a goal) like some Armagh forward.

Anyway that's me out.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 04:56:35 PM by MayoBuck »

Angelo

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Re: Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race
« Reply #218 on: June 26, 2020, 05:49:18 PM »
I've given numerous examples of him scoring and creating things off scraps but you won't acknowledge that. You just make these arbitrary comments like - I've never seen a mayo game when he was the dominant player. Or I've never seen him get 3 quick fire points at the end of a qualifier game (when his team needed a goal) like some Armagh forward.

Anyway that's me out.

No you have reeled off a load of scores he kicked and they have generally been handy frees and tap in goals where the work was all done by others.

I haven't seen him be the main man for Mayo, I've never seen him be the go to man, the guy who consistenly wins the hard ball, has the play all go through him. He's not capable of delivering a performance like McManus did in the Ulster final against Donegal where he had Neil McGee man marking him and two or three more Donegal players around him anytime he got the ball and yet was still able to kick sensational scores.

O'Connor is a Dara O'Cinneide type player. He's a good finisher but he's not able to survive by himself - everything depends on the service he receives.

Campbell last year against Mayo was demanding the ball, picking it up deep, driving at players and kicking long range points off both feet, this was in the crunch of the game. That is what you expect of top level forwards, it's not something I've seen from O'Connor.

You think he's a top class forward but you'll just reel off a game he got a lot of scores in, the problem is when you look at those games he's there to finish off the work of others.

He might be a top level finisher but a top level forward is about an awful lot more than his finishing, when I saw him inside beside Moran the difference is night and day.