Fermanagh v Dublin AIQ/Final

[AZOffaly]

A large proportion of the free were classic examples of penalising the stronger man.
Some of the Fermanagh forwards are very small & light.
That's not Dublin's problem.
If I tackle someone fairly, and he falls over in the process, that's not a free.

this for me though is probably my biggest bugbear in football in general. A man gets touched (not fouled), goes to ground, what percentage of the time does he get a free? I'd say its a pretty high percentage

The McHughs now &  Dooher, Canavan were the absolute best at 'creating' a foul....a real gear grinder

Is the biggest bugbear not that its virtually impossible to tackle someone "fairly"

It is, as long as the man with the ball has to play the ball according to the rules as well. If lads are allowed to take 8 steps it's very hard to do anything. But on a hop or a solo, a good near hand tackle can be very effective.

[Rossfan]

Monaghan has a bigger population than Fermanagh,

They have double the "GAA minded" population of Fermanagh.
Fermanagh have to be quite pleased with their 2015 achievements overall, (yet have no shiny cup or cupeen to show for it all) and were enjoying a rare big Championship day out in Croker so good luck to them.
However will they ever ( or Leitrim, Longford or Carlow ) ever have a big day out with a chance of winning there?

You're a Roscommon man correct? You tell them !

Roscommon a County with 10 All Ireland Titles across the grades, one of very few (Galway/Meath/?? ) Counties to have beaten Kerry in All Ireland Finals in all four grades of football, reached 2 U21 Finals in this decade, Won a Club AI this decade, are now ( maybe briefly) a Div 1 team, Won a Minor AI in the last ten years, Have countless Provincial Titles ( 12 in the 21st Century).
Yeah sure how could we think we might do better than Fermanagh, Leitrim, Carlow or Longford. Mind you the latter aren't doing badly at underage in recent years either.

[imtommygunn]

It's not all about roscommon. Don't forget you were beat by... yes that's right Fermanagh.

There's a massive gap between the top teams and the rest. Massive. About 26 or 27 counties in Ireland would get beat by ,at a minimum, the same as what fermanagh did.

The football has become like the hurling and there are really only 2 or 3 potential winners every year. The rest are nowhere near. The scorelines are beginning to resemble hurling ones too.

[JoG2]

Monaghan has a bigger population than Fermanagh,

They have double the "GAA minded" population of Fermanagh.
Fermanagh have to be quite pleased with their 2015 achievements overall, (yet have no shiny cup or cupeen to show for it all) and were enjoying a rare big Championship day out in Croker so good luck to them.
However will they ever ( or Leitrim, Longford or Carlow ) ever have a big day out with a chance of winning there?

You're a Roscommon man correct? You tell them !

Roscommon a County with 10 All Ireland Titles across the grades, one of very few (Galway/Meath/?? ) Counties to have beaten Kerry in All Ireland Finals in all four grades of football, reached 2 U21 Finals in this decade, Won a Club AI this decade, are now ( maybe briefly) a Div 1 team, Won a Minor AI in the last ten years, Have countless Provincial Titles ( 12 in the 21st Century).
Yeah sure how could we think we might do better than Fermanagh, Leitrim, Carlow or Longford. Mind you the latter aren't doing badly at underage in recent years either.

what has the Roscommon senior football team achieved in recent years in the championship? I wee retrospective look back at 'all grades' is all well and good, but we (you) were discussing the Fermanagh senior football team and their campaign. I could see through if you were from the Kingdom or Dublin. But you're not, you're from Roscommon who would be lumped in with Fermanagh ie teams with little chance of winning cups at senior level

[AZOffaly]

That's my worry. We had people talking about tiered championships early in the year, but last weekend theoretically we had 4 of the best 12 teams in the country playing 4 games. The winning margins were 7 points, 10 points, 27 points and 8 points. And arguably the 10 point game was the closest of the 3. Next weekend I'd expect Tyrone and Monaghan to be very close, and Donegal- Mayo to be likewise. Is there a county in the country that would be close to breaking into the circle of 5-6 teams? Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal and Monaghan seem to be out in front, with Tyrone probably the ones with the best case to be included in that bunch. Who else is within an asses roar? Anyone else in Ulster? Armagh, Fermanagh, Cavan, Derry, Antrim, Down? Not really. And Ulster would be the one with the best overall standard. In Connacht, maybe Galway are next in line, but Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim are all a good bit off that. Maybe Roscommon will get a bit closer next year. Leinster is a bit of a wasteland outside the pale. It would be very competitive if you took Dublin away, but competitive at what level? Westmeath, Meath, Kildare and Laois are probably the top 4 in Leinster outside the Dubs, and they are all miles off the likes of Kerry and Mayo. Offaly, Longford, Carlow, Wexford, Louth, Wicklow are all miles off that again. And in Munster, Cork might be dangerous with their heads on right, but there are problems in Cork I think. Tipperary are obviously trying but are still a mile away from the top top teams. Clare, Limerick and Waterford are a level below that. Actually Waterford are on a level below the other teams.

It's not so much that there's a gap, it's that the gap is so wide. To be honest, you could nearly make a 6 team 'premier' division and have another 20 play a very competitive championship, and the bottom 6 play a novice championship. And the teams in the 20 team group are a mile ahead of the bottom 6 and a mile behind the top 6. It'll get really worrying when the level of separation in the middle 20 starts to grow.

[imtommygunn]

Tyrone and Monaghan will be tight but the winner will play Kerry and that may not be so tight. I'd even worry Donegal Mayo may not be so tight as I think Donegal have dropped their standards a good bit(though hope I'm wrong).

I think it's 3 or 4 rather than 5 or 6.

I really don't know who has the potential to drift into those top 3 or 4. With the players cork have they should be a lot better. In Leinster it doesn't look like there's anybody. In munster, while tipp are good underage, it's a massive step up for them and at this stage the step up is looking increasingly large for cork. In connacht I would say once Galway had players but not so sure any more so I'm not even sure there is anyone else there.

Your Kilkenny, Tipp, Galway and Waterford in the hurling are mirrored by Kerry, Donegal, Mayo, Dublin. I'd say it's the same case too. Realistically you'd be very surprised if AI hurling wasn't KK or Tipp and in the football Kerry or Dublin.

[ONeill]

I was looking at the hammerings dished out by Dublin and Kerry in the All-Ireland semis in the late 70s/early 80s. Not much has changed.

[brokencrossbar1]

I was looking at the hammerings dished out by Dublin and Kerry in the All-Ireland semis in the late 70s/early 80s. Not much has changed.

The only thing that has changed is the media exposure. The whole notion of a widening gap is a fallacy. Only 3 'new' teams have won an AI in the last 40 odd years. 20 teams have won titles but if that 8 teams won them from 1957 backwards!  So for the last 60 odd years the cup has been shared between 12 teams with a Kerry and Dublin having 28 of them!!!  The gap has always been there and frankly always will. That's the way of sport and rarely will it change.

[Darby]

My admiration for Fermanagh the last day had nothing to do with the gap of eight points at the end. As a lot of people here have said, there should have been a bigger gulf between the teams. My admiration had to do with their players who seemingly didn't give a f**k about the opposition. Look at the Leinster teams before a game with Dublin, absolutely spilling their pints at the prospect. Frontal charge on Cluxton was never a goal, but was it not heartening to see Quigley didn't give a f**k about Cluxton's reputation? Would you see a Kildare man showing such disrespect? Jeered by the hill, firing over a free from past the 45? Riling the hill after a goal? If you're going to die, die with honour.

[Jinxy]

My admiration for Fermanagh the last day had nothing to do with the gap of eight points at the end. As a lot of people here have said, there should have been a bigger gulf between the teams. My admiration had to do with their players who seemingly didn't give a f**k about the opposition. Look at the Leinster teams before a game with Dublin, absolutely spilling their pints at the prospect. Frontal charge on Cluxton was never a goal, but was it not heartening to see Quigley didn't give a f**k about Cluxton's reputation? Would you see a Kildare man showing such disrespect? Jeered by the hill, firing over a free from past the 45? Riling the hill after a goal? If you're going to die, die with honour.

Are we talking about Dublin or Fermanagh?
The Dublin players had the indifferent air of a teenager who's forced to have a kick around with his 8 year old cousin while his mother and aunt look out the kitchen window.

[AZOffaly]

I think it's self evident the gap is widening lads. Maybe it's only widening back to the way it was, or maybe it's a cyclical widening. But the top 5 or 6 teams are so far ahead of the next 20 at the moment, that I can't remember anything like it. I'm not talking about Kerry or Dublin in the 70s. I remember the 80s, 90s, 00s etc. in that spell we had a Kerry famine of 11 years, which contributed, and we also had a long period of Dublin being down, which the GAA sought to address in conjunction with the Dublin Co. Board. I don't think there's any question that the 'blanket' (no pun intended) which could be thrown across the top 12 or 13 teams in the 90s and 00s has shrunk considerably down to 5 or 6 at most. So maybe it's always been there before the 90s and 00s, but does that mean we should be happy to go back to that state of affairs?

In sport, you will always have good teams, and bad teams. But your 'mean' shouldn't be so far behind the maximum.

[AZOffaly]

I just read McGuinness' article there at lunch time, and I agree with a lot of what he is saying. He articulated it better than I did as well. However there's a fundamental flaw in the tenet of his article, i.e. that the GAA took action after the Cavanagh foul. The Black Card was brought in in the congress before, it just wasn't due to be implemented until the following year, so Brolly took advantage of the Cavanagh incident to show a 'prime example' of cynical fouling.

But back to the main point, I agree with Jimmy. I found the whole weekend a bit of a worry, and I found Fermanagh's attitude towards the result disconcerting rather than refreshing.

[dferg]

I was looking at the hammerings dished out by Dublin and Kerry in the All-Ireland semis in the late 70s/early 80s. Not much has changed.

http://gaelicstats.com/head-to-head/

Kerry especially more or less got a bye to the all ireland semi final every year other than the odd time Cork gave them a game.

15/06/1986   KERRY   5 - 9   0 - 12   TIPPERARY   CLONMEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
10/06/1984   KERRY   0 - 23   0 - 6   TIPPERARY   TRALEE   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
26/06/1983   KERRY   5 - 16   2 - 5   TIPPERARY   CLONMEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
03/07/1977   KERRY   3 - 14   0 - 9   TIPPERARY   TRALEE   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
15/06/1975   KERRY   3 - 13   0 - 9   TIPPERARY   CLONMEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
17/06/1973   KERRY   3 - 11   0 - 5   TIPPERARY   TRALEE   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
11/06/1972   KERRY   1 - 12   0 - 9   TIPPERARY   CLONMEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
13/06/1971   KERRY   1 - 14   1 - 7   TIPPERARY   KILLARNEY   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;

27/05/1990   KERRY   1 - 23   0 - 13   CLARE   LISTOWEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
06/06/1982   KERRY   1 - 15   0 - 9   CLARE   ENNIS   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
28/06/1981   KERRY   4 - 17   0 - 6   CLARE   LISTOWEL   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
01/07/1979   KERRY   9 - 21   1 - 9   CLARE   M MALBAY   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;

29/05/1988   KERRY   3 - 10   1 - 7   WATERFORD   TRALEE   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
21/06/1987   KERRY   3 - 15   2 - 8   WATERFORD   DUNGARVAN   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
18/06/1978   KERRY   4 - 27   2 - 8   WATERFORD   KILLARNEY   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
20/06/1976   KERRY   3 - 17   0 - 6   WATERFORD   DUNGARVAN   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;
16/06/1974   KERRY   7 - 16   0 - 8   WATERFORD   KILLARNEY   CHAMPIONSHIP   MUNSTER   W;

[From the Bunker]

I just read McGuinness' article there at lunch time, and I agree with a lot of what he is saying. He articulated it better than I did as well. However there's a fundamental flaw in the tenet of his article, i.e. that the GAA took action after the Cavanagh foul. The Black Card was brought in in the congress before, it just wasn't due to be implemented until the following year, so Brolly took advantage of the Cavanagh incident to show a 'prime example' of cynical fouling.

But back to the main point, I agree with Jimmy. I found the whole weekend a bit of a worry, and I found Fermanagh's attitude towards the result disconcerting rather than refreshing.

I've found the medias attitude towards the result disconcerting. They have really hyped how well Fermanagh did.

[Darby]

My admiration for Fermanagh the last day had nothing to do with the gap of eight points at the end. As a lot of people here have said, there should have been a bigger gulf between the teams. My admiration had to do with their players who seemingly didn't give a f**k about the opposition. Look at the Leinster teams before a game with Dublin, absolutely spilling their pints at the prospect. Frontal charge on Cluxton was never a goal, but was it not heartening to see Quigley didn't give a f**k about Cluxton's reputation? Would you see a Kildare man showing such disrespect? Jeered by the hill, firing over a free from past the 45? Riling the hill after a goal? If you're going to die, die with honour.

Are we talking about Dublin or Fermanagh?
The Dublin players had the indifferent air of a teenager who's forced to have a kick around with his 8 year old cousin while his mother and aunt look out the kitchen window.

Do Dublin ever give a f**k about the opposition in Leinster? No, but the teams they play certainly give a f**k about Dublin. Offaly, Meath, Laois, Kildare, these were all serious football counties. Fermanagh never were. They were always going to die, but died with honour. End of.